Anita Rao
The first time I learned about Joe Biden's stutter was late 2008. I was home in Iowa during my first winter break in college, just in time to experience the wild Iowa caucus season. I didn't see Biden speak myself, but heard about one of his appearances from a friend who offhandedly mentioned noticing a small stutter. I didn't think about it again until a few years ago, well into his term as president, when a video of Biden went viral on Twitter. It was a conversation between the President and a young girl with a stutter. He bent down, looked her in the eyes and said, "I promise you it'll go away if you just keep at it, okay?"
While much of the internet gushed at the sweetness of this interaction, it gave me pause. What if a stutter weren't something you had to overcome? What would it look like to raise the next generation to embrace more diverse ways of speaking?
This is Embodied, I'm Anita Rao.
Millions of Americans stutter, but no two experiences of stuttering are alike. Speech patterns can vary depending on who someone is talking to and the particular context in which they are speaking. There's a lot we don't know about what's happening in the brain to cause a stutter, but here's what we do know.
Dr. Derek Daniels
We do know that stuttering is neurophysiological — that the neurophysiological condition, it has genetic contributions. And it affects the person's speech production such that the person who stutters knows exactly what they want to say, but there are moments where they experience interruptions, such as repeating a sound, repeating a syllable. A person who stutters may prolong or block on sounds.
Anita Rao
That's Derek Daniels. He's an associate professor in the Department of Communication Sciences and Disorders at Wayne State University. He's also a licensed and certified speech-language pathologist, and a person who stutters. He's part of a community of researchers trying to learn more about how stuttering shapes people's lived experiences. Through that work, he's regularly exposed to the abundant misinformation about stuttering.
Dr. Derek Daniels
There is a stigma towards stuttering in society. So if you look at movies, if you look at TV shows, if you look at the way that stuttering is portrayed, it can be portrayed as something that's comical, it can be portrayed as something that's funny. And those stereotypes affect the kinds of experiences that people who stutter have. And a lot of people who stutter, myself inclu-included, we grow up thinking that stuttering is something that we shouldn't do. We try and conceal stuttering as much as possible, because, again, there's a stigma attached to stuttering. And so, some of the stereotypes about people who stutter include things like, people who stutter are just nervous, or people who stutter might be anxious. And nervousness and anxiety are not the root causes of stuttering. Now, certainly a person who is nervous or a person who has anxiety, you know, certainly it may affect the degree to which a person stutters in a certain situation, but those things aren't the root causes of stuttering. Stuttering isn't caused by being nervous, or isn't caused by being anxious.
Anita Rao
You mentioned developing various kinds of coping mechanisms because of people's reactions. Take me back to your childhood a little bit, I'd love to know what this looked like in terms of your own experience.
Dr. Derek Daniels
So in my own experience, when I grew up, no one around me really understood stuttering. It was always, "Derek, slow down. Just say what you want to say." And the harder I tried to do those things, the more problems I would have. My coping strategies were hiding. I would say as little as possible, I wouldn't participate in class. If I thought there was a word that I couldn't say, I would either change it or not say anything. I always tried to get out of classroom presentations. I think I was the king of avoidance and the king of concealment, because, again, I didn't really know anyone else who also stuttered. It wasn't until years later, when I was in college, that I really, actually, understood stuttering, and I understood that there was a community of people where stuttering was embraced. And so I think that's really where my transformation began is, once I actually learned that stuttering wasn't a bad thing, and that it was okay to stutter, and there were other people who stuttered like me.
Anita Rao
So we've talked a little bit about how the way someone stutters can vary depending on where they are, and who they're with, how they're responding to, how people are responding to them. And this is something you explore in your research, looking particularly at the experiences of African American men who stutter. So I'd love to know a bit about that experience — talking to these men about their stuttering experiences and how you heard about the way these experiences change based on who these men are around.
Dr. Derek Daniels
Yeah, that was one of my very first research projects that I did. I was a sociology major when I was in college, so I was really fascinated about learning about — about race, and about class, and about gender, and about disability, and how all of those things interplayed into people's experiences. We know that certain cultures and certain communities have ideas about talking, and we know that sometimes disability can be stigmatized in certain cultures and communities. So I specifically wanted to look at African American men because of my own identity as an African American man. And I know that growing up, the ideas about what it meant to be a man, for me personally, the ideas were that you were supposed to be strong, you were supposed to be tough, and you were not supposed to show vulnerability. So I think that played into my experience of trying to conceal my stuttering. So I did these interviews with African American men who stutter, and for a few of my participants, they actually confirmed what I was feeling, what — and what I was experiencing. They felt like, you know, there was a stigma attached to stuttering, there's also a stigma attached to being an African American male. And so, they tried, as much as possible, to conceal their stuttering because they experience multiple stigmas. And so when they stuttered, they felt like that was, sort of, a sign of not being a tough person — which is the image that they tried to project. Certainly, that's not true of everyone, but I think the culture and the community you grow up in, and how they view talking, and how they view stuttering, can play into a person's experience.
Anita Rao
Derek's research is fascinating, and I ended up getting pulled deep into the science journal universe as I was looking into his work. He studied the link between culture and stuttering experiences, not only in the African American community, but also among those who identify as LGBTQ. He's written about how many people in that community feel like they have to pass on multiple levels, and some often find it easier to accept their queer identity than their identity as a person who stutters. In addition to his research and teaching work, Derek also does a lot of public advocacy and education. As he put it, "I do all things stuttering." And it was in one of those many roles that he met a person who grew up with a stutter in a small rural village in southwestern China. That person was Jia Bin.
Jia Bin
When I was in school, I have to say that there's no su-support. There's no speech-language pathologist in the school system, and back home, like, my parents don't understand why I talk like this. And the only way they responded to me is, basically, to inflict some pain and thinking if they were harsh on me, my stutter would just go away. I basically navigated my first 30 years of life in China by pretending I'm a fluent person. I hide it from every aspect of my life.
Anita Rao
Jia is a doctoral student studying speech-language pathology at Michigan State University, but when she moved to the U.S. almost a decade ago, she was seeking a master's in education. She'd spent years as a classroom teacher in China and, for the most part, hid her stutter. So much so that sometimes she wouldn't call her students parents when they were in trouble because she was nervous about talking. Moving to the U.S. changed all of that.
Jia Bin
So when I first came to the U-United States, I was in this ma-master's program, and in America, like, you guys have lots of presentations. You — you are put in a po-position that you cannot hide it anymore. I think, like, in a way, I was forced out of my stuttering closet because I had to, like, communicate ve-verbally. So at this grad class, I can still remember, we were doing a presenta-tation — we have a group — and we prepared for that project for, like, weeks. And the day we presented, I was, like, the last per-person to summarize and to present. And that day, my speech — I just couldn't get one word out. Like, for two minutes, I was, like, in total blocked silence. Like, the entire class were looking at me, like, what's going on? Because I'd never disclosed that I'm a person who stutters. And it just came to that point, I couldn't speak at all. And I almost had an emotional br-breakdown, an-and it's, like, the first time, like, I was put in this position. It's like, you have to face your stuttering. That's, like, the moment I know that I had to come out of the closet. I-I just used Google, you know, to find stuttering support groups, like, stuttering therapy, that's, like, helped me to come out of that closet. And once I get professional help, and on-once I get con-connected to the stuttering com-community, it's a long process. It's not like, "Oh, Jia, she lived in this total shame and concealment, and then she, just, overnight, you know, like, be proud of who-who I am." It took me a long time to-to do-do that journey. So — and then, I want to mention Dr. Dan-Daniels. He was actually my professor when I changed my career into speech-language pathologist. And he is, actually, the first person I've seen in an authority role speaking in a class, and he is a professor who-who stutters.
Anita Rao
Derek, I know that you are — you know, you speak publicly in such a wide variety of spaces, you do lectures, you do podcasts, you do academic work. What has it been like for you, kind of, owning your stutter in that space? How has that evolved for you over time?
Dr. Derek Daniels
It's actually been very wonderful. I mean, I always say that, you know, when I was growing up, my greatest sources of shame are now my sources of — greatest sources of empowerment. It's very, very empowering for me to be able to stand up and talk and stutter. Because I think that we're embracing stuttering as a part of diversity, as a part of speech diversity. I think it's very important for people to understand that and to recognize that diversity. I think the more differences people are able to see, I think that really helps society. It really helps people to understand that there are people like me, and like Jia. We're people who stutter, but it doesn't take away from anything about us.
Anita Rao
Thinking about a stutter as a type of speech diversity is, kind of, a distinct approach that more and more people are taking now but has not been done historically. I'm curious about what it's like for you to talk with parents who may notice a stutter in their kid and are wondering what I should do about it. Should I take them to speech therapy? What's the right way to approach this? I'd love to hear about those conversations.
Dr. Derek Daniels
Yes, certainly, I think when you're working with parents, it's important to help them understand that it's not something they did wrong. You know, it's a difference in how one talks and how one communicates. And we want to help children to be the best talkers and the best communicators they can be. That can also — that can and does include stuttering. So, you know, it's all about communication. It's all about having patience. It's about being attentive to what your child is saying. It's about focusing on the content of the message, rather than the delivery of the message. We have to really create a space around these children that supports how the children talk. So, you know, speech therapy for young children can involve lots of different things. And yes, sometimes it can involve helping the child to speak easier, if that's the goal, but ultimately, it's about embracing the child for their communication. It's being patient, it's being a good listener. And we want children to grow up and enjoy talking and to enjoy communicating.
Anita Rao
Jia, you saw a speech therapist for the first time when you came to the U.S. I'd love to know what your intentions were going into that experience and what came out of it for you.
Jia Bin
The purpose of me going to the speech therapy is to — with that mentality: fix me, give me fluency. Because back in-in time, like, I think, like, stuttering is the root of my all suffering. So I had that intention of going to the speech therapist to basically, fix my stuttering, fix my life. And I remember my first speech-language pathologist, Dr. Merson, at a local hospital. He was telling me, "Hey, Jia, there's no cure." Like, what? I came all the way from China and managed to be here, and this is what you're telling me? What do you mean you cannot fi-fix me? And I think what Dr. Mer-Merson tau-taught me, or-or he-he gives me the tools to like, get connected to self-help groups. It was the first time I heard that, you know, like, it's okay to stutter. And to me that's almost, like, that part I denied in myself, was given the permission that I take that part back.
Anita Rao
Jia says she's still very much in the middle of her journey with stuttering, not the end. But things feel a lot different to her than they did a decade ago, and she's also been working to support other Chinese people who stutter. She founded "Stammer Talk," a Chinese stuttering podcast, and runs an online support community for Chinese stutterers.
Jia Bin
I want to bring this back to my part of the world. Probably you guys heard about Plato's cave analogy, right? Like, oh my God, I got up out of the cave, I see the light. And I want you — to bring you guys out and see the light. Like, it's like, you don't have to be fixed. So it's been a journey. I definitely feel that, you know, I have this mission to basically go back to the culture. I have to say it's been di-difficult, but at the same time, I see the hope there. Because I think, like, the Chinese people who stutter, they want the same thing as the American people who-who stutter. We want acceptance, we want dignity, we want love, we basically want the same things. But to work through that culture barrier, to-to break that stigma. It's-it's my life mm-mission, and I'm just starting to tackle that thing. It used to haunt me, but at the same time, I have so much love for-for the cul-culture I-I came from too.
Anita Rao
That's a beautiful reflection. And for you to be able to hold both of those at once, despite the fact that there is, there's pain there, and there's history there. But there's also, it seems like, a lot of joy in thinking about how you can bring these worlds together. And Derek, you know, you really research and think about this intersection of identity and what it means to live in various spaces as someone who stutters. And you are also a Black gay man who stutters, and I'm curious about how you exist in all of these identity markers at the same time. I know that you have written that sometimes you have to give yourself some grace when it feels like you're taking a step backwards because it can be a lot to hold. I'd love to know a little bit more about that, and maybe if you can share an example that comes to mind of giving yourself that grace.
Dr. Derek Daniels
Yeah, you know, I think it's just the idea that we are all complex. There's complexity to everyone, and I think it's ultimately about affirmation. You know, I think we all want to be affirmed for who we are, and people who stutter are complex individuals, and we have lots of different identity markers. And so we have to find the spaces that validate and affirm those identities. I really try and give myself those affirmations. My experience is not everyone's experience, but my experience is a valid experience.
Courtland Crain
When I first started to date at around age 18, I really worried a lot about how the other person was going to perceive my stuttering and what they would th-think about it. There were a lot of times that I, kind of, got the idea, or I felt like, somebody that did not like me, or they didn't have romantic interest in me, just because of my stuttering. But as my confidence with my voice grew, and I began, sort of, my-my journey of self-acceptance with my stuttering, I started to really w-worry less about what potential romantic partners would th-think about my stuttering. And now, you know, I'm at a point where I fully allow myself to be-be myself when I go on dates and when I talk to girls. Oftentimes now, my stuttering is more of a way to sh-show my vul-vulnerability and open up to people about how stuttering has impacted my life growing up. And — and I realized, too, that there's a lot of people out there who are genuinely interested in stuttering and that they want to learn more about it. And that's really helped my relationships grow a lot, and I really couldn't ask for anything more-more than that.
Anita Rao
That was Courtland Crain, a 24-year-old speech language pathologist and person who stutters. He has a great YouTube channel where he dives into everything from relationships to stuttering advice he wishes he could give his younger self. Another big time YouTuber in the stuttering world: Matice Morris.
Matice Morris
Men u-usually th-think and tell me that my st-my stuttering is cute. I'm not quite sure what they find cute about it, especially in moments wh-when I am tr-trying uh to get a word out and my face is all c-contorted and such. But I ha-have had them tell me it's c-it's cute, and they like it, o-on multiple occasions. In my friendships, I don't really hang around anyone who has an issue with me, o-or how I talk, or just, like uh p-people in general, who have an issue with how I talk. Honestly, with friendsh-ships and dating, I don't have any problems b-because it's not m-my problem. If someone has an issue with my stutter, that's their problem, never has been mine.
Anita Rao
That is right and so on point. It is basically a universal truth that dating can be funny, hella awkward and eye-opening, whether or not you stutter. And if you do, there can be some uniquely humorous moments. Comedian Nina G is an expert in pointing those out.
Nina G
So a lot of times people think that the speech — that-that the st-stuttering is fake, like, I'm faking it for the comedic effect. I just hope you know that if that were the case, I'd be the fucking Meryl Streep of st-stuttering, okay? You can't fake it this good, you can't. Plus I have a rule that I don't fake my st-stuttering, and I don't fake my or-orgasms. The two have a lot in common because if the other person would just shut up and stop interrupting me, I'd finish a lot faster.
Anita Rao
So you started to stutter when you were 8 years old, and it was also at that age that you became a comedy enthusiast. And I heard you talk in an interview about calling around to stand up comedy clubs when you were, just, like, 11 or 12 to see who had open mics that allowed kids. But you didn't really start your comedy journey for more than two decades after that, so talk to me about what stopped you from following through on those phone calls.
Nina G
Yeah, well, you know, keep in mind that this was in the 80s and 90s when I was making these calls and planning to get on stage for the first time. I-I hadn't seen anybody who st-stutters do comedy, so I was like, "Well, you have to be fluent. You have to be fluent in order to be a stand up comic." And so the dream just, kind of, eventually died when I got to be around 17. But then, in 2010, I went to a conference for people who st-stutter. I was 35 at the time, and when I came back from that, I realized how much I had been holding myself back. Like, women are-are socialized not to take up space. And I think everybody who st-stutters, we are socialized, oftentimes, to not ta-take up space. And so, it was a double impact as a woman who st-stutters. And when I left that conference, I just changed a number of things in my life, so many things in my life. And within six months after that, I started to do st-stand up because I knew it was the thing that I'd wanted to do my whole life, and the reason why I didn't do it was because of my st-stutter.
Anita Rao
So before you had that transformative moment at a conference, you were in a 10 year relationship. And I'd love to hear a bit about what you have been uncovering about how the internalized stigma around your stutter informed how you showed up in that relationship in particular.
Nina G
Yeah, so, you know, it's — the title of my book is "St-Stutterer Interrupted," and when you are a person who st-stutters, you are interrupted all the time. Like, everybody's trying to fi-fill in words, they think it's helpful. It's not, everybody, don't fill in our words, it's not helpful. And so what I realized though, was how much I had been interrupting myself. And how even in my relationships, whether they were platonic, or romantic, or even family, that I was not saying the things that I wanted to say because I had some guilt around having people sit through my st-stutter. And in that relationship, and a lot of relationships I've had, I wasn't making myself heard. And it wasn't necessarily because of the stutter, but it was because I had been used to keeping myself quiet. It was, just, kind of, a global interruption that went beyond my speech.
Anita Rao
I love that because you also talk a lot about how being interrupted takes an emotional toll. And I think that's such a powerful way of framing that because it's all of the, kind of, like, little ways that you feel like parts of you are carved away when people are constantly interrupting you. How did comedy create a space for you to begin to, kind of, make more noise around that and take up that kind of space that you had wanted to?
Nina G
Yeah, you know, I think the goal of my comedy, ever since the beginning, is to look at the so-societal impact of st-stuttering. Re-Recently, I had heard someone say that I make stuttering the butt of the joke. I totally don't, I really try to stretch it to make people who react to my stutter in weird and strange ways — which is, a lot of times — I try to make them the bu-butt of the joke. Because to me, the problem with having a stutter isn't the stutter, but it's other people's reaction to the st-stutter. And also the internalized st-stigma that-that a lot of us then carry because of that.
Anita Rao
You also talk really openly in your act about sex and your sense of humor around your own sexual experiences. What's it been like to make that a more prominent part of your comedy?
Nina G
It's, it's so organic to, kind of, my ou-outlook and my experiences. I mean, I grew up Italian Ca-Catholic, so it's not like sex was always very accessible. And you know, and also with the st-stutter, when I was in high school, the way that I handled my st-stutter was to be weird. I thought, oh, if I'm weird then I'll stutter less, and it's better to be weird than to be a stutterer. And so, now, to talk about sex-sex and stuttering — and the response from men especially — it's, it's a lot of fun to, just, kind of, put that stuff back out there. And I'll use one example. I was in a class, and they — and they started to talk about trauma, and they looked at me because they're like, "Oh, yeah, you definitely — with that speech, you must be traumatized." I was like, "No, no, no, no, you guys are all wrong." And I went into, very much, a similar explanation that Dr-Dr. Daniels ta-talked about, ho-how it is mo-motor an-and physiological. And also, when we use a voice, like a funny voice or when we sing, then we're less likely to st-stutter. In my example that I used was Ma-Marilyn Mo-Monroe. And that's why she talks like this because you can trick your brain into not stuttering as much. And I did the Marilyn voice for this class, and that's when one of the men in the class said, "Oh, that's very sexy. Maybe you should talk like that all the time." I was like, "No, that's cool. I think that I'd rather st-stutter."
Anita Rao
Nina describes her dating life as having two different eras: dating before 2010, the year of the Stuttering Conference, and dating after. It was in the post-2010 era, when she was dating another person with a stutter, that she was able to see how much of herself she had still been hiding. Everything from how she flirted to how she felt in her body.
Nina G
Yes, Ma-Marilyn Monroe, probably one of the most beautiful women on the face of the earth ever, ever, ever, ever, stutters, and we don't get to hear her st-stutter. And it would have been so nice to have the stutter matched up with this hot wo-woman because it would have helped the rest of us know that you can be sexy and st-stutter. It's not something that I ever associated, which is also why, in my act, I sometimes say that I'm a SILF, a stutterer I'd like to ah, because it helps to give us a different perspective of s-stuttering and attractiveness. And so, when I, when I dated a guy who s-stuttered, it helped to, kind of, get me past that, and then helped me in subsequent relationships. And I've been married to my husband now for a few years, and we dated for a long time prior. I met him through comedy because he's also a c-comic. So he had, kind of, already been schooled on stuttering from hearing me go up night after night after night after night, and knowing what he could say and what he couldn't say. And, you know, it's weird how the world of comedy, for me, is the place, like, I am just like everyone else there. And it's probably the only place in my life where I feel that way. When I'm in comedy, everybody knows just to let me talk, and it's a-a normal piece of wh-who I am.
Anita Rao
I'd like to leave y'all with one of my favorite moments from recording the show, which actually happened before we officially got started. It confirms everything that Derek, Jia and Nina said about the support that lies in having community. We had a lot of technical trouble getting Derek connected for this interview, and here's the moment where we finally got him on the line.
Jenni Lawson
Okay, hold on just a sec, Derek. Can you hear me?
Dr. Derek Daniels
I'm here, yes.
Anita Rao
Okay. *group cheering in background*
Dr. Derek Daniels
Y'all hear me now?
Anita Rao
It's like a party now.
Nina G
Yeah. No, we have been hearing you.
Jia Bin
From the very beginning, we've heard your voice Dr. Daniels.
Anita Rao
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast and WUNC's other shows on demand, consider a contribution at wunc.org now. Incredible storytelling like you hear on Embodied is only possible because of listeners like you.
This episode was produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. We also had production help from Elizabeth Friend. Madison Speyer is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Quilla wrote our theme music.
Check out our show notes for information about everyone we talked to, including info about Nina's upcoming comedy special, links to national and international stuttering communities and the YouTube channels of Matice and Courtland who you heard from earlier. Also, thank you to all the new listeners that have found their way to our podcast, we would love for any of you listening now to share the word about Embodied in your own networks. Word of mouth recommendations are the best way to support our podcast. We would so appreciate your support.
I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.