PLEASE NOTE: This is a minimally-edited transcript that originates from a program that uses AI.
Anita Rao
This is Embodied, from PRX and WUNC. I’m Anita Rao. Yowei Shaw, formerly of NPR's Invisibilia, now calls herself an emotional investigative journalist. It’s not a typical journalism beat — in fact it’s one Yowei invented.
Yowei Shaw
I'm helping people report on their feelings essentially. And what do reporters do? You talk to sources, with insight and experience with the issue.
Anita Rao
We’ll talk to Yowei about her new show that uses reporting to help people out of emotional ruts. And hear about the discoveries she’s made along the way about her own big feelings.
Yowei Shaw
I'm still a crier. Like that is my primary, way to deal with. Any unpleasant feelings. But I think like the difference is I'm not like, judging myself for that approach.
Anita Rao
That conversation and more just ahead, on Embodied.
It was March, 2023 when Yowei Shaw got the email. She had been absolutely dreading the NPR show. She'd been co-hosting. Invisibilia was ending. And she was being laid off.
Yowei Shaw
Objectively speaking. I had about as good of a layoff as you can get. I got severance. I had savings. I didn't have kids to provide for, I had a safety net. I could probably get another job with my years of experience, and NPR told me that the layoff had nothing to do with my performance.
Anita Rao
Despite the relative okayness of her circumstances, no amount of fried food or bad television was helping. Her feelings were not letting up.
Yowei Shaw
I felt just these huge feelings of worthlessness. I remember just like. Walking around in the weeks after the layoff and when I would see people, I knew, I would hear this sound in my head like, you know, in video games where like, you know, a character's energy goes down, it's like, do I felt like my status would go down and other people's eyes? And then I was feeling shame about feeling the shame.
Anita Rao
As the months wore on Yowei not only continued to feel sad and bad, she started to feel stuck. How is she ever gonna find her way out of this new emotional reality? This is embodied our show about sex, relationships, and your health. I'm Anita Rao.
In the face of emotional stuckness, Yowei turned to the one thing that had worked before reporting on her feelings. As the process unfolded, she created a new professional identity. Yowei Shaw emotional investigative journalist. Yowei has since launched a new podcast called Proxy, which expands on the premise of emotional investigative journalism and helps other people move through their emotional conundrums.
We're gonna talk about the many discoveries she has had along this journey about how to understand and manage difficult emotions. But first, I needed to ask her the most obvious question: what even is an emotional investigative journalist?
Yowei Shaw
Good question. So I, I will preface this by saying that I started calling myself this. As a bit at first. Okay. Because I just thought there was something funny about juxtaposing something as serious as investigative journalism with something as squishy as emotions. But then, um, people really just were into it and then I was like, oh, this is actually, this is not a joke. Basically, I use. The traditional tools and skills of a reporter and investigative journalist and I apply them to feelings. You know, I think of what we do. I think we cover the emotions, be, you know, there is, when you think about the history, sociology and science of emotions, there's sort of the more straightforward take on the emotions beat. And then when you look at like pretty much any. Problem or situation even, you know, current news events. There's an emotional side to those stories that we don't really investigate.
Anita Rao
So you've been a journalist for a decade or so now. Do you have a memory of the first time you really turned your reporting and journalism skills to this question of emotions in your own life?
Yowei Shaw
Yes, very clearly. So, several years ago, if you remember the Crazy Rich Asians moment, of course, right?
Anita Rao
Yes, of course. How could, how could anyone not?
Yowei Shaw
Um, so that was, you know, several years ago, crazy Rich Asians. The movie came out and there was a lot of discourse about. How hot these Asian actors were, specifically the Asian men, and there was a lot of discourse about the history of emasculation of Asian American men and how big of a deal it was to see these hot Asian. Women getting with Hot Asian men on the screen. Mm-hmm. Instead of the combo, an Asian woman with a white guy, and as an Asian woman dating a white guy who I'm now married to, I was having feelings, I was thinking about my dating history. I was thinking about, oh, like who have I dated? What is sort of the racial breakdown here? And. I realized, oh, I have mainly dated white guys, and I was feeling really weird and just confused, and so I decided to report a story about it. I wanted to understand, you know, why are so many Asian American women with white men, why had I. Done this myself. You know, is there such a thing as a racial preference? And so I ended up talking to a lot of Asian American women who were dealing with similar questions. I talked to a lot of Asian American men, I talked to a lot of researchers, and by the end of the reporting and making this story, I felt less stuck.
Anita Rao
Hmm. Tell me more about that. 'cause you said you felt weird. You were like, okay, I'm noticing a phenomenon. I notice that I feel weird. Weird is not exactly an emotion, but I know what you're saying. Tell me more about like, how did the feeling shift through doing that deep dive?
Yowei Shaw
Well, let's see. How did I, weird. That's right. It's not exactly an emotion. I was feeling embarrassed. Mm-hmm. I was feeling confused. I was feeling. Alone. Mm. Even though, you know, I was one of many, but I felt alone. And just the experience of talking to all these people who I could find solidarity with and learn from their experiences and, you know, what, how they felt about it and what they were doing about it. And, um, talking to these experts who could. Help me understand the context of this issue. Like that helped me understand on an intellectual level what was happening. And also on an emotional level, I think I found community and I think just like the process of going on a trip.
Anita Rao
Hmm.
Yowei Shaw
You know, like it felt like I had gone somewhere and done something and I felt like. I had arrived somewhere new.
Anita Rao
You mentioned that you had felt kind of stuck and stuck in this feeling of weirdness, which we've unpacked as being maybe loneliness. Tell me about your family context. Like how did you learn to think about emotions? How did you learn to process emotions, and how did that kind of inform the questions and the stuckness that you ended up feeling around emotions?
Yowei Shaw
Yes. So I, um, so emotions have always been a mystery to me. Mm-hmm. I'm not particularly good at them. I grew up with Taiwanese immigrant parents, where the question, how do you feel was never asked. And I think as a result. I just didn't get very much practice with accessing my emotions, understanding my emotions, learning how to talk about them, how to manage them. And so by the time I got to Invisibilia as like, you know, an adult in my mid twenties, I was still pretty emotionally stunted. Like I pretty much had two modes, like I'm either good or I'm crying. Like, I like to call myself emotionally leaky, where just like my feelings will sort of ooze out of my pores. I remember starting at Invisibilia, I was so overwhelmed. I. The former host of Invisibilia, Elise Spiegel, we would have this ritual where she would just take one look at my face in the office and be able to tell something was wrong, and she would ask me to come. To to her office. And then I'd break down into tears and tell her what was up and then I would feel better. Like that just became a regular tool of emotion management in my work life, which is pretty ridiculous. And thank God Invisibility was a pro crying show. I don't know if that would've flown anywhere else, but yeah, I think that's, that's sort of got me. Just, just emotions and how, why do I feel this way and what is like a helpful way to feel and how do I manage my emotions? I mean, the stuff that they teach, you know, kids in a lot of schools these days, which I'm so glad to hear that they're doing. Um, I just didn't get any of that.
Anita Rao
So. You had been reporting on emotions and human behavior in your work with Invisibilia. You had had some of these conversations like the one you mentioned, the episode you were working on, where you had an aha moment around really investigating emotions and how that helped you get unstuck. But then in 2023 when invisibility was canceled and you were laid off, this really catalyzed you deep diving into this emotions beat. At what point did you decide to turn your reporting lens onto that experience?
Yowei Shaw
When NPR gave us, you know, the heads up that 10% of us would be cut in 30 days and we'd find out who in a month. Like I immediately. Pitched a series about layoffs to my boss and my boss, bless her heart. She listened very patiently and kindly and was like, absolutely not with very good reason. So I was already feeling this urge to like do the emotional investigative journalism thing. So then once I got out. Of NPR once, you know, I left. I was like, all right, let's go. And I ended up pitching a story to, uh, another program, another podcast, and it was green lit. And so I was, you know. Getting to basically talk to as many researchers, order as many books, talk to all these sources. As my heart desired, I was doing the emotional investigative journalism thing to try to understand like, why do I feel so bad? And the emotional investigative journalism magic started to work.
Anita Rao
Just ahead, we'll hear how reporting on layoffs helped Yowei work through her emotional conundrum and how she started helping other people do the same. You're listening to Embodied from North Carolina Public Radio, a broadcast service of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. You can also hear Embodied as a podcast. Follow and subscribe on your platform of choice. We'll be right back.
This is embodied. I am Anita Rao. When Journalist Yowei Shaw made up the beat emotional investigative journalism, she was hoping to use her reporting skills to make sense of difficult feelings and get out of emotional spirals like the one she was in after getting laid off from NPR in 2023. She did in-depth research on layoffs and interviewed experts who gave her new perspectives on her inner turmoil.
Yowei Shaw
I talked to this sociologist who studies unemployment, and he basically explained that, you know, our hiring system in the US is very personal. Like of course you have to have certain, you know, requirements. You have to check the boxes in these ways, but at the end of the day, it's like. Are you a good fit? Tell me your story. And basically he found that like American workers tended to blame themselves after getting laid off.
Anita Rao
Reporting this story was essential for Yowei. It helped her let go of some of the blame and shame that she'd felt after getting laid off, and she realized there was a need for more journalism like this and the service of other people's emotional issues.
Yowei Shaw
I was like, oh, I could provide that service for other people. Like that was something I could do. I could find that stranger who has relevant experience for. A guest to talk to about their problem.
Anita Rao
So Yowei decided to start a new podcast called Proxy Listeners reach out to her with a unique emotional conundrum, and Yowei finds someone who shares their experience and can help them find new insight into their emotions, their proxy.
Yowei Shaw
I'm helping people report on their feelings, essentially.
Anita Rao
Mm-hmm.
Yowei Shaw
You know? And what do reporters do? You talk to sources with insight and experience with the issue, and so in just a very pure way, like that's, that's the service that I'm hoping to provide to people is like, I'm a reporter. I know how to find sources. I know how to like, you know, talk to experts to figure out which one might be the best person to talk to for your. Problem. Um, I'm good at story finding. I'm good at finding people. It's like kind of reducing what I was doing before with my own emotional investigative journalism where like maybe I would talk to, you know, 15 to 20 people right. For a conundrum I was having and feel better. In this case, I'm trying to see what is possible by just setting, setting you up with one. Source who has a lot to say that might be helpful for you. It was also just like, I wanna provide something that's useful that other people are not already providing. And then creatively, you know, I just love the drama of a conversation. When you have a high stakes encounter between two people who are entering the space with open hearts and curiosity and honesty, like you don't know what's gonna happen.
Anita Rao
So I want to really kind of pick apart the proxy process a bit more with another specific example from your show. You have an episode called Bisexual Wife Guy, where you use the proxy model with a man who goes by the pseudonym. George. Tell us about him and, and what his emotional conundrum was.
Yowei Shaw
Yes, so I got an email, a very sweet email from a listener named George who. Uh, basically had been married for 10 years, thought he had a very happy, loving marriage. And then his wife came out as bi to him and he was very happy for her, you know, wanted to make it work, wanted her to explore that. Um, and in the end, the marriage doesn't work out. She leaves him pretty abruptly. Mm-hmm. And he has lots. Of questions about it and you know, he felt pretty alone because. Part of it was that he just didn't feel like he had a right to have feelings about this experience. He was, I think part of it was he was like, oh, I, I'm happy for her. I want her to live her best gay life. And he also just didn't know anyone who had gone through the same experience like he was in support groups for divorce divorcees, but no one had gone through these exact experience. And so he was wondering if. Is there a proxy he could talk to? Who got it? You know, either like another cis straight dude who, um, had gone through the same thing and had wisdom to share, or you know, a queer woman who had left. Her husband.
Anita Rao
So that's, yeah, that's, that's who you chose. And I have a clip that I would love to play of a former colleague of yours named Hannah, um, who was the proxy for George. And, and here she explains why she's a good proxy for him and the boundaries of her role. Let's listen.
Hannah
Okay, George. I don't have any degrees in proxy. Dumb. I did not study proxy in either college, high school or graduate school. What qualifies me is life experience. I had a similar experience to your partner. I was married to a man and then I. Found myself in a situation of being extremely sort of attracted to a woman, and then it just kind of cracked my brain open. So I think that's what qualifies me. My only role here, you know, I, I will never in this conversation know you well enough. I will never talk to your ex. So we are doing this at the level of like roles. So in, in the way that I can just speak from that experience without either overgeneralizing or getting over specific.
Anita Rao
Okay, so there, uh, is Hannah and George. Tell me about what you were thinking about before you matched these two in conversation.
Yowei Shaw
I mean, it was kind of my dream proxy conversation when you think about it, George. Works in media. He's a journalist. I know he is gonna ask good questions. Hannah. I mean, she's a professional podcast host and journalist, and from years of working with her, I knew she's, she's so smart at feelings. But, um. What I wanted to make sure is that everyone was prepped, you know, like that we knew what we were doing, what the assignment was. And so what I do before proxy conversations is, you know, of course I assess whether the guest is up for the, for this experiment. Make sure that they're comfortable talking about their story, that, you know, it's not triggering for them to, to retell their story and make sure that they have mental health supports in place already. That this is like not the first place that they are, um, processing this issue. And then on the proxy side, you know. I make it really clear what their assignment is. I'm like, your job is not to give you, you're not a coach. You know, your advice is not to just lecture your, your job is to listen, to really listen and ask follow up questions, and share any experiences and insights. You have that relate to what they're saying. And this is, it's a really hard job when you think about it. Um, it's very emotionally delicate and you know, you have to be very good on the fly. So that actually has been something that we've learned is it's actually, you know, the guest job is kind of easy. You just have to show up with the problem. But the proxy, proxy has proxy is difficult to, you know, really deliver for the guest and the listeners.
Anita Rao
I wanna play a moment from their chat just for people to really understand what these conversations can sound like. So you, George and Hannah got into a virtual room together and George started asking Hannah about her experience leaving her marriage and coming out as queer to her husband. George was kind of saying out loud some of the questions that had come up for him during his own breakup. Let's listen.
George
Were you afraid to have the conversation with him? Like were you worried about hurting him or how he would react?
Hannah
Yeah. This is a person you love and a person you're very intimate with, and I think because it's such a bomb to survive it, you really almost have to like shut yourself off to the other person's feelings.
George
Mm-hmm.
Hannah
If you love the person, you have to write yourself a script. Mm-hmm. I am queer, I'm this, I'm doing this. You have to write a script and then walk into the script for a while. 'cause that's like as much as you can handle.
George
You said he was shocked, but could he have said anything or done anything that would've made you think like, actually maybe
Hannah
No.
George
Yeah, no. I feel like even asking this out loud, I know the answer.
Hannah
I'm glad you asked because it's probably a question and that's probably a thing that anybody thinks about, so I totally understand why you're asking that question. Um, but the answer is no.
Anita Rao
I wanna have you reflect on. What is distinct about the proxy model through, through listening to that moment? Like why, why is George talking to Hannah so different from, you know, you setting up a conversation between George and his ex, what can happen in a proxy conversation that was happening right there in that moment?
Yowei Shaw
Well, the first thing is that. George wasn't able to talk to his ex mm-hmm. About these things. I mean, it's, this is such a painful, high stakes issue for him. Yeah. And getting the chance to talk about it with someone who probably understands his ex's point of view and perspective, but there's no stakes between the two of them. It doesn't matter really. What happens between George and Hannah? Right. And so I think that really just gives George space to ask questions that maybe he wouldn't even have felt comfortable asking his ex, you know? And so there's like this, almost like this rehearsal quality to a proxy conversation. Like George gets to have this rehearsal conversation with someone. And gain some insight so that he can be maybe better prepared to have the actual conversation with his ex if he has it one day. And if he doesn't, you know, he's able to get a little bit of closure. What's happening for George and Hannah is there creating a new experience that is restorative and positive around this painful event.
Anita Rao
So there's actually a, yeah, there is neurobiology behind this technique that you learned about. You talked with a psychologist who is an expert in this, and I wanna play what he said about kind of what's happening in our brains when we are doing something like this proxy conversation. Let's listen.
Dr. Scott Giacomucci
Like on a neurobiological level, what I think is happening is that you're accessing the memory or the memory network related to whatever the experience is, and in a different but very similar context. You're creating a new experience, a new memory that gets connected to the old. This new memory has a different level of safety and connection and understanding and empathy, and it gives the individual the opportunity to express the things that were unexpressed from the initial experience. So they're able to have some sort of catharsis and expression and closure perhaps. And then absorb some new perspective and insight about the other role that was involved in the situation.
Anita Rao
So tell me about what you learned about how proxy is used in therapy and, and what's going on. Um, in this particular model that we heard him talk about.
Yowei Shaw
Okay, so that was a psychodramatist. Um, psychodrama is a type of psychotherapy that is group work and it involves a lot of reenactment and role playing as like the primary mode of healing. And, you know, I wanna be clear, like. A proxy conversation is not, you know, it's not therapy. There's no mental health professional in the room. Everyone understands this is not therapy and there's much more of a two-way street in a proxy conversation. It's like. Imagine you're, you're sitting at a bar next to a stranger who just happens to have the right experience with the problem you have and you talk about it. So I just wanna be crystal clear about that first. Um, but it was really interesting to learn about, you know, these places where, you know, proxy like conversations were happening. So in psychodrama, um. The core thing that they're doing is they're having a role play. There's a group of people, they decide what issue they wanna, they wanna work on, and what the role play will be. There's no script and everyone basically just says what comes to their mind? They're trying to really inhabit the role that they have, so. I think the psychodrama version of like the, um, conversation that George and Hannah had might be like, okay, maybe there's somebody else in the group that will play role play as George's ex-wife.
Anita Rao
Mm-hmm.
Yowei Shaw
And George will have a conversation and say what he needs to say to his ex-wife and that other person will really try to inhabit. His ex-wife and respond in the way that feels, you know, natural. And then they'll reverse roles and George will talk to himself as his ex-wife and say the things. That he needs to hear for closure and then they'll switch back again. So basically this Psychodramatist I talked to, he was like, oh yeah, it's similar. Mm-hmm. Except that with a proxy conversation, no one's role playing. Right. You found someone to actually, who actually fits that role. They don't have to pretend.
Anita Rao
It's them. Yeah. And that takes me back to like why someone would want to be a proxy and what they get out of it. Like maybe back to the Hannah George example. Like what does what, what is the draw for Hannah?
Yowei Shaw
Well, Hannah is my friend wants to and wants to help me. I think I was relying on that a bit in the beginning 'cause she didn't really know what she was getting into, even though I did explain it. But I think by the end of the conversation you hear her say like, this was really helpful for me. Like I never got to have this conversation with my ex-husband and it was really. Helpful and healing to get to talk to you. Someone who has the experience and perspective of my ex-husband, who won't talk to me in this way about these feelings. And so ideally in the proxy conversation, everyone is getting something from it. And then, you know, I just wanna say it's also not that deep.
Anita Rao
Mm-hmm.
Yowei Shaw
Like, you know, like. A conversation can be healing. I talked to this one therapist and um, this therapist said, you know, it's important to remember all kinds of interactions can be therapeutic and make us feel better. Think differently, but that doesn't make them therapy, you know? And like his whole point is like, we should be wary of medicalizing genuine human interaction. So in, in a lot of ways it's just, it's just a really raw, honest, good conversation between two people who have a shared experience.
Anita Rao
That's so interesting because I wanted to ask you about like being aware to. And being sensitive to not cross lines. Like you're very clear in the show. This is not therapy, I am not a therapist. But you did mention that like before, you invite people into the process, you talk to them about what other mental health support, like you're aware that these conversations have implications. So how do you as a journalist, like think about holding that line of like, what is your responsibility as a journalist and your responsibility to journalistic ethics, and then what is your responsibility to. These people and and their own emotional safety.
Yowei Shaw
Yes, it's very important. From the beginning, I knew that I had to figure out. How to make this a safe experience for everyone involved because when you're dealing with emotions, I mean, emotions are unpredictable and there can be real harm done if, if you know, you're not careful. You know, some of the tips I got was, you know, stay away from. Childhood trauma stuff, stay away from trauma with a capital T, you know, where the guest is actively experiencing trauma. Make sure you know that everyone understands that this is not therapy, but also if someone is experiencing a problem where the real headline is that they need help materially. You know, not just emotionally then like, and, and that's, you know, say someone was, you know. Dealing with sexual harassment in the workplace, you know, and they were facing this system that was unfair and they were trying to, you know, be a whistleblower. And like that is probably not a proxy story, right? It's not, you know, I would probably suggest they reach out to. ProPublica or a more traditional investigative journalist. So we're really, really thoughtful about how we select stories, how we prep everyone, and we keep learning. Every proxy conversation is an experiment, and I have a very long Google doc where I keep, you know, all of my proxy learnings and we just, you know, continue to fine tune our process.
Anita Rao
Just ahead. We'll talk about the future of emotional investigative journalism in a time when Yowei needed to find a proxy for herself. As always, you can hear the podcast version of the show by following embodied on your platform of choice. We'll be right back.
This is embodied. I am Anita Rao. When Yowei Shaw started her podcast proxy in May, 2024, she began with a series of episodes that helped her get to the bottom of her big feelings about being laid off. It was part of her newly rebranded career as an emotional investigative journalist, someone who uses reporting tools to help people get emotionally unstuck. In proxy, she pairs a guest with an emotional conundrum with a stranger who has shared experience and facilitates their journey of discovery.
Proxy Trailer Clip
On proxy listeners, knock on my door with their emotional conundrums cases, they haven't been able to close because no one in their life can relate or maybe because the one person they wish they could talk to won't or can't. Cases, like the guy who can't stop fact checking his mother-in-law who has Alzheimer's, even though he knows better, or the band that hasn't been able to finish their record for years and can't figure out why. Or the introvert who loves her extroverted friends, but struggles to hang out with them.
Anita Rao
But in over a year of making the show, she's also noticed some shifts in how she thinks and talks about emotions. Some of these have come from listening in to other people's conversations, but recently Yowei had the chance to find a proxy for herself to help tackle an issue that had been nagging at her for years.
Yowei Shaw
My conundrum was being an introvert who felt like I had to fix my personality. I grew up in a family of introverts where it was totally normal to come to dinner and everyone reads their own book in silence. Like that was the norm. I. Then I became a few years ago, I, you know, switched from like a producer reporter who was, you know, most of the time not behind the mic myself, to like being the host of a show, being, uh, the face, being the one who's always asking questions, talking to people, voicing stories. Um, and that was just like a real. Shift for me. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I didn't think that like I had the right personality to be a host. I'm kind of quiet. I don't really, you know, I need a lot of alone time. Like I, it, it's draining for me to talk to people. Like I have to limit how much I talk to people during the week and during the day. Yet here I am with this job and I wanted, I, I want to do a good job at, at being a host. Plus you add on the whole racial element of like, I'm an Asian American woman who happens to be quiet, you know, who happens to conform to this stereotype of a, you know, a submissive, I mean, I'm not actually submissive, but you know, just from the outside like. Quiet, meek, submissive. I'm not loud and brash and in your face. And so I've had a lifelong hangup about the Asian American stereotype thing, and then recently had to confront this hangup of like, oh, I don't have the right personality to be a podcast host as an introvert, as someone who's quiet. And then I, you know, just. Happened to be reading Aparna Lib, her recent book, unreliable Narrator, and she has this essay on um, being an introvert. And that was my proxy moment. I was reading her book and I was like, oh my God, I am doing like the spoken word snaps, like just like underlining every other sentence. She was just articulating things that I had never heard anyone articulate about this experience. How she had wanted to fix her personality from an early age and tried to like. You know, beat the introversion out of her, tried to be more extroverted, like, you know, to fit in with everyone else and, and what it's like to be, you know, someone who's paid to talk in public as an introvert. And so I, I knew I wanted to talk to her.
Anita Rao
So the two of you had a really interesting conversation about how extroverted personalities are more celebrated in western culture. Here is what Aparna said about that.
Aparna Nancherla
It does feel like sometimes extroverts are writing the story of like what we are like. I don't think because someone's quiet, it means they're submissive. You know what I mean? Yeah. The two are not. Hand in hand. I think it's fed into what feels like a bottomless well of self-doubt. 'cause it's always like, you know, be yourself or like follow your gut. And I'm like, oh my God, that's the worst.
Yowei Shaw
I hate that advice. Be yourself.
Aparna Nancherla
But also it's like if you're constantly told that yourself is not the right person, you're like, I don't even know what that means when you're telling me myself. 'cause myself is clearly not what you want.
Anita Rao
Okay. So what shifted for you having that conversation with Aparna, having your very own proxy?
Yowei Shaw
It was really interesting to hear a fellow introvert who I really admire, who's so talented and just like so funny and good at her job, be like, yeah, this is me.
Anita Rao
Hmm.
Yowei Shaw
Like I don't have to change. I shouldn't have to change. And it's okay. It's okay to be an introvert and be a comedian. And I've learned to accept that. And it was interesting to hear Aparna talk about her role models being the quiet comedians, you know?
Anita Rao
Yeah.
Yowei Shaw
And that's really basically like I was like, I need to fix my personality. I need to be more extroverted. Let me try to be more extroverted. Let me, you know, who are the good hosts out there? They're all like loud extroverts. Like, those were my role models. But talking to Aparna, I think taught me like, oh, like I don't have to be like that. And, um, I think talking to her also gave me more confidence to, to ask for what I need. Yeah. As an introvert. You know, one of the things we talked about was how, you know, Aparna likes to get questions before getting interviewed, and so now instead of being embarrassed, I ask for questions like I did with you all. I asked for questions. I was like, it helps me to prep. Like, that's just how my brain works. I've just like have had more confidence to ask for what I need, you know, and not feel bad about it.
Anita Rao
So you started this podcast to understand some of the confusion and overwhelm that you felt with your own emotions. You help other people get unstuck in their emotions. How have you seen growth in how you respond to your feelings? You, you started us with this, you know, image of you post layoff. Very weepy, you know, avoiding, not really avoiding eye contact with people on the street, but feel feeling a big way. When you ran into people on the street, like in the, in the year or so of doing these conversations, how has your own relationship to emotions shifted?
Yowei Shaw
Well, you know, I have been on a therapy journey myself, so it's not like I was, um, I had grown on, like, I had, I had made some developments in being emotionally stunted and being able to access my feelings and managed them and articulate them. So I wouldn't really like, attribute that progress to the show. But I do think that I. Have learned things. I think I've learned some things for how to handle other people's emotions. Hmm. With more care, one of the biggest learnings is I really try to listen first. You know, when a friend or my husband is talking about a problem they're having, I think like my. In the past, my impulse is to wanna fix and give advice and jump into like cheerleader mode. But I've noticed from these proxy conversations when they go well and when they don't go well, like that doesn't really work. Like you need to listen first and really hear people and make sure people know that you're hearing them before you, you know, jump into any advice mode and you know, probably you need to get consent for that. Another thing I. Have learned to do, I think from making the show is you really can't argue with people's experiences. You know, it's kind of, you know, a trope to say everyone's feelings are valid, but I don't think we actually, uh, pay attention. I don't, I don't think we actually practice that way. Like I don't think we live that way. You know, and I don't mean that like everyone's feelings are right. Or like that means, you know, everyone has to act on their feelings. I just mean like when you're talking to someone and they're telling you about their experience, it does not help to argue Yeah. With their feelings. Um, and everyone does deserve to be listened to and attended to. In that moment.
Anita Rao
I was gonna ask you about this distinction between a proxy conversation and an advice conversation, because we've kind of talked about like the way having your experience mirrored by other people can be really helpful and supportive, but you don't want these to be explicitly someone seeking advice and someone being in the advice giver role. So how, how do you think about that piece and, and the relationship between kind of. Catharsis and unst stuckness and getting advice.
Yowei Shaw
Well, I think when you're asking for advice, there's an inherent hierarchy there. Mm-hmm. Right? Like you're kind of putting the other person, the quote unquote expert who's capable of giving you advice on a higher pedestal, and there's not really a back and forth like you were there with the problem, and then the expert gives you advice. It's kind of a one way street. And that's just fundamentally, you know, not what we do on the show. Like yes, sometimes the proxy is a researcher, an expert, a traditional expert who studied, you know, an issue for decades. But we really, really. You know, prep our guests and proxies to not come in with their like professor hat on and their expert hat on. You know, like yes, they have all this experience and expertise and insight and that's why they're there. But this is like a conversation between two humans who are peers who are just having a conversation. And sharing together. Um, so yeah, maybe advice will be given that that can happen in a proxy conversation. But I think it's, it's more so the sharing of experience that needs to happen in every proxy conversation. I'd say like that's the sharing of experience, the listening to each other's experience, um, and offering. Relevant insights based on your experience.
Anita Rao
When we started this conversation, you described yourself as someone who exists in kind of two modes. Um, you're either like, fine or you're crying, and I'm, I'm curious about how doing all of this intellectual work around thinking about emotions has changed how you actually like metabolize and experience them. Do you have more than two modes now?
Yowei Shaw
I, I'm sorry to say that I'm probably still about the same. Um, you know, I probably, uh, yeah, no, I'm pretty much, I'm still emotionally leaky and I'm st. I, I'm still a crier. Like that is my primary way to deal with any unpleasant feelings. But I think like the difference is that. I feel like I have more compassion for myself.
Anita Rao
Mm-hmm.
Yowei Shaw
I'm not like judging myself for that approach. And I really try not to judge other people either. Like I just feel like I'm, I, I have, I'm really trying to let go of judgment. 'cause that's what we're trying to do with these proxy conversations is create this safe space of openness, curiosity, and no judgment. And I think. Uh, that has been maybe one of the biggest changes is like practicing what I preach and trying to do that for myself.
Anita Rao
So you are currently the only person I know on this beat that you invented, emotional investigative journalist. What do you think we could gain from making emotions a more common subject of inquiry, turning our journalistic tendencies more toward this subject?
Yowei Shaw
Well. I think that, um, well, I would love for there to be more emotional investigative journalists. Hit me up if you wanna talk and I will share what I know. But yeah, emotions are obviously a huge part of everything, and I don't think we pay enough attention to them as a critical component of a new story, of any new story or. Any event we're talking about. So like, what about those emotional dynamics in our politics? You know, like we talk about them, but I feel like there's a lot more that we can learn and get into there. It seems like we're living in a moment where emotions come before, facts for a lot of people. And as long as you express and own your feelings. Like you can get away with saying a lot of things or doing a lot of things and I, I think that's like one of, I don't know. To me that's like a huge question that I don't think. Uh, we have really reckoned with, like, it's a question that has a lot to do with, you know, um, the conspiracy theories that are, you know, out there right now and, um, the state of our political discourse and, um, you know, fake news. I know that's a buzzword, but how did we get here, right? And how can we navigate this more effectively? I'm also interested in, you know, what emotional conundrums can we investigate to help people survive and navigate this really difficult moment when, you know, there's just seems to be a, a lot of crises and a lot of, um, it seems like a lot of things are on fire. Um. What emotional dynamics are hidden in our politics, relationship, institutions and systems. That would be helpful for us to understand. Those are kind of like the big, big questions that I would like to get to at some point. I should mention that, you know, our show is not just proxy conversations. We also do emotions Beat episodes where we take on. Like an emotional question and it's, it's not like, you know, a common emotional question, that it's not just somebody's personal conundrum where we set someone up with a proxy conversation. So I'm hoping that we will get to more of these larger questions in year two.
Anita Rao
Yowei Shaw, the creator and host of the podcast proxy. Thank you so much for the conversation.
Yowei Shaw
Thanks for having me.
Anita Rao
You can find out more about Yowei and her podcast proxy at our website, embody w unc.org. You can find all episodes of Embody the Radio Show there and subscribe to our weekly podcast. You can find behind the scenes and bonus content for our show by following us on Instagram. Our handle is @embodiedWUNC. Today's episode of Embodied was produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. Wilson Sayre also provided editorial guidance. Nina Scott is our intern, and Jenni Lawson, our technical director. Thanks also to Sean Roux. This program is recorded at the American Tobacco Historic District. North Carolina Public Radio is a broadcast service of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I am Anita Rao.