Anita Rao 0:00
Board games were a big part of our family life growing up. I played Parcheesi with my dad, Mall Madness with my sister. And all of us together often played Life, a board game that's been around in some form since the mid-19th century.
Vintage Life Commercial 0:16
You can be a winner at the game of Life! Hey look, I've got a wife! Here's some taxes. Will you be rich when you get through? You can be a winner at the game of Life! Yay, I win! The game of Life, from Milton Bradley.
Anita Rao 0:33
We have the early 90s version, where you could choose if you went to college, what your job was and where you would retire. But two things the game required you to do, in this order: get married and have kids. I obviously found out that there are far more life path options than existed in that game. But the idea that to have children you should first find a partner had a strong grip on me until I was much older. It was only then that I started to meet folks who are committed to the path of parenthood regardless of their relationship status. Like Tara.
Tara Ilsley 1:11
I always knew that I wanted to be a mom. And I really longed for the weight of a baby in my arms. And I really didn't want a romantic relationship to define that or to miss out or regret on being a mom, because I wasn't dating someone at that time or in a partnership.
Anita Rao 1:30
I'm Anita Rao and this is Embodied. More and more people are breaking up with the idea that parenthood requires partnership. And there's data to back that up. One of the world's biggest sperm banks says that over half of their sperm customers are single women. And that number has continued to tick up. So what's behind this trend? And what is it like to build a non traditional family? I'm joined by someone who thinks a lot about these questions: a single mother by choice and civil rights activist Hera McLeod. Hera, welcome to embodied.
Hera McLeod 2:07
Thanks for having me.
Anita Rao 2:08
So your journey to becoming a single mother by choice started with some personal tragedy. Your son, Prince, died. He was your first child. Can you tell us a little bit about your early experiences of motherhood that set you on this path?
Hera McLeod 2:22
Yeah, so I became a mom. And I was a single mother by chance, meaning I did not set out to be a single mother. I listened very closely to what society was telling me, that I had to have the wedding first, then the babies, and you know, the house with the picket fence, and all, and all the things. And society is a traitorous witch. Because she will set you up and make you think all these things and put you on a path where you are pressing relationships unnaturally because of your desire to have children, which is exactly what I did. And I ended up in a extremely abusive relationship with my son's father. And about two weeks after he was born, I left. And it was a very traumatic experience, because I left as he was holding a gun to my head. And unfortunately, through the course of the next 15 months, I learned that our country does not - does not feel a duty to protect children. And the family courts, despite a lot of evidence against my ex as being both abusive to adults and children, they - the courts allowed him to have unsupervised access to my son. And on the fourth unsupervised visitation, my son was killed. And when my son died, I remember feeling like, I'm, you know, I'm a mom, you can't stop being a mom just if you don't have children. It's not like your brain rewires back to what it was before you had kids. And I knew that I wanted to be a mom still, even though my son wasn't here anymore. But I also knew that I didn't want to co-parent. And I think because I had already been a single parent, what I thought a lot about was, you know, the hardest thing about being a single parent really was dealing with my ex, right, like the actual single parentness wasn't hard in comparison. And so I looked into being a single mom by choice. I, at the time, I didn't know there was a name for it. I was just like, I know, there are sperm banks. I know there's a way to do this without the traditional relationship. And at the time, I had many people in my family - because they also were very deeply entrenched in what society was saying - they were like, "Well, maybe you should just wait for Mr. Right?"
Anita Rao 4:52
Well, yeah, I want to I want to pause you there and just ask if you had any models in your life for doing parenthood a different way, like Did you have a sense of...
Hera McLeod 5:01
No.
Anita Rao 5:01
Okay (laughs)
Hera McLeod 5:02
So I came from a very deeply, not necessarily a religious family in that we were in church every week, but I came from very heavy Irish Catholic on one side. And so, I think it just - everybody was married, everyone stayed married, there was, you know, there wasn't this idea that people were in any sort of nontraditional situation. I mean, I think at the time, we didn't even have anyone in the LGBTQ community in my family. That has since changed, thankfully, because people are feeling more comfortable coming out and being who they are. But at the time, you know, everyone was like, "Why, why would you do that? Like, why would you raise a child without a father?" And I think going through what I did, what I really realized is kids need healthy people in their life. And my kids have that, like they have grandparents, they have aunts and uncles, they have lots of really healthy role models in their life. And so I also, you know, told my family, I was like, you know, "I feel like the traditional ship has sailed, right. And it has sailed a long time ago." And I think, for me, it was almost like, I finally had permission to just do what I wanted to do, because I didn't feel like there was any way for me to even go back to the traditional. Like, I already, I already had this past. And I was like, you know, I don't really care what people think, like, I just want to be happy, I want to live my life.
Anita Rao 6:23
So once you had decided to pursue this path of parenthood without a partner, you decided to use an anonymous sperm donor. What was that experience like? How did you choose the person that you wanted to be your kid's biological father?
Hera McLeod 6:39
So, at first, it was very overwhelming, because there were just a lot of options. And so I had to really think about, like, what do I care about, you know? And, and, you know, and friends are like, "Oh, like, let's make this a party, you know, like, choosing characteristics that you would want in your, you know, future child." And so I realized, looking through lots of profiles very quickly that there weren't a lot of donors that shared my ethnic background, my racial background. And that was really important to me. Because growing up as a biracial Black girl who had two parents that didn't necessarily share my color, I remember situations as a kid being frustrated when people were like, "Oh, is that your nanny?" You know, and I almost got stuck in a country one time I got stuck in Mexico, because they didn't believe my mom was my mom. And so I was like, I don't want that. I want to have kids that look like me and are in similar, similar skin tone. And so I was intentionally looking for a biracial Black donor. I was very surprised that the overwhelming amount of white donors there were. So like, let's say there's like 600 donor options. There might be like six Black options, and maybe even fewer if you're looking for a biracial Black donor. And so that was that was fairly shocking. I was fortunate to find one. And another thing I looked at was I, I listened to the, the the audio recordings, and I really liked what he said. He told a story about how he had saved his sister's bike from a bunch of bullies. And I was like, you know, I know that like nurture is big in this, but I did like that he seemed very kind. Because he seemed very kind in that he - that was the story he chose to tell, which I thought was really great.
Anita Rao 8:41
I love that. So you were talking about the experience of finding a donor and feeling like you had someone who is a good fit. I'm curious about what it was like to move from that process to then pregnancy and how you were received by folks in the medical community and throughout your pregnancy process, as someone who was choosing to do this without a partner.
Hera McLeod 9:04
So I think that I'm the type of person that typically goes through the process of thinking deeply about something before I share it with people. And so that was the same in this situation. So by the time I shared it with people, I think a lot of people in my life thought that it was this, it was a impulsive decision. So the first reaction people had was, "Oh, you know, give your self a chance to grieve," because I didn't really wait that long. I mean, I think it was, I promised my friends and family that I would wait until my ex was in jail before I tried to go forward. And the day he got arrested, I contacted a fertility doctor and was like, let's go. And I remember the fertility doctor even at the time was like, you know, "Maybe you should wait, and maybe you should wait to meet someone." And I think I distinctly remember being irritated because I was like, there's, there's still this assumption that I should do what other people think I should do. And it's almost like people want you to do the traditional so that it somehow validates their decisions and their choices in life. And I was like, I love that for you. But I don't want to do that. And so I - it's interesting, I meet a lot of women who are, who spend a lot of time sort of fence sitting, they go through the hole, like, "Oh, well, do I want to have a known donor? Do I want to have a friend?" And I had some guy friends that were like, "Hey, like, I'll co-parent with you." And I'm like, "You didn't hear me. I said I don't want to co-parent, and it doesn't mean I don't love you. I love you." I have lots of men in my life, who I dearly love as friends and I'm like, "You would make an amazing father. However, I do not want to co-parent with you." And so I was pretty definitive once I made the decision. I didn't have any hesitancy because, and I think, in some ways, as unfortunate as my trauma was, I wasn't afraid to be a single mom. I already knew that I could do it, and I was very excited about the possibility of doing it without the drama.
Anita Rao 11:09
Hera has confronted a range of assumptions and judgments about her path of solo motherhood. And I was curious to know how much of these conversations have trickled down to her kids and how they feel about their family structure. After the break, we'll get answers to some of those questions when we meet Hera's 10-year-old daughter Estela.
Welcome back to Embodied, our show about sex, relationships and your health. I'm Anita Rao, and today a conversation about single mothers by choice. We left off tracing Hera McLeod's path to choosing single parenthood. She was 33 when she gave birth to Estela, and five years later, her youngest daughter Issa was also born. Both of her daughters have the same sperm donor and were born through IVF. Now that her kids are a little older, Hera has made it her goal to be transparent with her daughters about each step in the motherhood process. Everything from where do babies come from to what are blended families. And a couple years ago, Estela asked to join her mom and exploring these topics. The two now co-host a podcast called "Seeking Different."
Estela McLeod from "Seeking Different" 12:25
As a kid, sometimes we all feel different and like we aren't normal.
Hera McLeod from "Seeking Different" 12:29
And as a biracial Black mom who used a donor to have my kids, there are plenty of times when society reminds me that I don't fit in.
Estela McLeod from "Seeking Different" 12:35
We will talk about things like travel, school and navigating differences from the unique lens of our different family.
Hera McLeod from "Seeking Different" 12:43
Our podcast will tackle difficult conversations. Okay Stella, serious question. Are you ready for this? Yeah. Do you remember the first time mama told you that you had a donor?
Estela McLeod from "Seeking Different" 12:55
I think I always knew that I had a donor because you told me a long time ago.
Hera McLeod from "Seeking Different" 12:59
You remember when?
Estela McLeod from "Seeking Different" 13:00
No! (laughs)
Anita Rao 13:04
Hera McLeod is still with me. And we're joined now by her 10-year-old daughter, Estela. Hey Estela, welcome to Embodied.
Estela McLeod 13:10
Thank you for having me here.
Anita Rao 13:12
So we heard a lot from your mom about the experience of conceiving you and kind of coming up against all these assumptions that people have about being a single mom by choice. I'm curious about the most common questions that you get from other kids about your family structure.
Estela McLeod 13:30
Something that I've heard a lot of times is like, how come your dad doesn't really come? Or sometimes if the teacher is like talking about like, family structure or something, when like, he asks kids for examples, and then I would raise my hand. And then like, I would say, for example, like, "I don't have a dad, my mom is single." And then like, once you go back to our desks, someone next to me would like whisper and asked me like, "You don't have a dad? I'm so sorry." They would tell me that like I'm sad about it, but really, I'm not.
Anita Rao 14:10
What do you say in response?
Estela McLeod 14:12
I would say like, "Well, some families are different. And I have a different family than yours." And I didn't lose my dad, like he didn't die or something. Like I would say like, "My mom just didn't want to have the husband."
Anita Rao 14:30
Yeah. So you and your sister Issa share a sperm donor, and you've had the chance to actually meet some other siblings who share that same donor. Can you tell me a little bit about what that experience has been like for you?
Estela McLeod 14:44
So the experience is kind of like when I see them, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, these are my siblings. I haven't met them before." And all the half siblings that I've met are really, really fun. So So, yeah, that's the experience that I have, whenever I'm around them.
Anita Rao 15:04
Hera, talk to me a little bit about making that decision to connect with other families and how you went about that process.
Hera McLeod 15:12
So I was fortunate enough to find another woman who used the same donor right around the time that I was pregnant. We both lived in the Pacific Northwest at the time. And so we made a point to have the girls meet up a few times while we were out there. But for me, I wanted to make sure that my kids had the opportunity to have access to these other children, because these are, you know, this is - these are people that are related to her. And I do hope that one day if, if they want to reach out to the donor once they're 18, that he will be willing. But if he's not, I also want to make sure that they are able to connect with that side of their biological family. But what has been great is there are a lot of different family structures within the donor pod, or what have you. And so Stela has been able to meet kids who have two moms, she's been able to meet kids who have a mom and a dad who used to donor as well and also other single mothers by choice, those types of families. So I think it's been a pretty positive experience. And one thing that I find really magical is every time we've met up, even when they were super little, like 2 years old, the kids just seem like instantly connected to each other. There's, there's always like a little awkwardness in the beginning. But then, by the end, it's like people, if if somebody on the outside saw them together, they would just think they were a bunch of siblings.
Anita Rao 16:37
Well, I want to talk to you a little bit about your relationship with other single moms by choice. You built a lot of intentional community and got engaged and involved in community with other single moms by choice. And then in those spaces, you started to kind of feel like there were times when you wanted to specifically be able to just connect with other Black single moms by choice. Can you talk to me a little bit about that, and some of the threads distinct to that experience that you wanted to build community around?
Hera McLeod 17:07
Yeah. So there were a few of us in the larger SMC community, there's a lot of social media platforms related to, you know, parenting, single parenting, single mom by choice. And so I started to notice there were a lot of topics that really, a bunch of us wanted to talk about amongst our own community. Like, for example, donor selection. And one of the reasons why topics like this were so important to speak about within the Black community is a lot of times in the larger community, you have this sort of, like, you know, white SMCs, that are like, "Oh, you know, I'd love to choose a Black donor, because biracial babies are so cute." You know, and it's like, we wanted to kind of talk about those issues of donor choice without sort of having that. And also being in a space where we didn't constantly have to feel like we were teaching other people about racism or dealing with those levels of microaggressions. So, so I guess it was about 2018 where Mocha SMC came to be. And it was really just a few of us in the larger community saying, "Hey, we need a space that is specifically for Black women to talk about these issues." And it's been a really positive experience, because we have women all over the globe, some in Caribbean, some in Europe, some all over Africa. And, you know, we speak about a lot of topics from how to go through the adoption process to stereotypes of Black single motherhood, and things like that that are unique and sort of at the intersection of our experience.
Anita Rao 18:44
Estela, I want to hear some of your reflections on the experience being raised by a single mom by choice, but in particular, how you talk about this with your younger sister, if you do at all, and any conversations that you all have had.
Estela McLeod 18:58
Being raised by a single mommy is kind of like, I feel like it's just kind of normal. And sometimes when I talk to Issa about it, Issa sometimes says, like, "I wonder if you have a dad, I wonder what it's like to have one." If she asked me a question, it's like, "Well, like, you can ask Mommy that," or, if we're just like randomly talking about it, then like me, I used to just kind of talk about it like, "I think that having a daddy would be pretty fun, but I still like to have a mommy."
Anita Rao 19:32
Hera, I know you have been really intentional about building out a community of support around the two of you. You all live in an intergenerational household. Can you talk a bit about this intentionality behind the way that you want your kids to be raised and your philosophy around family structure for you all?
Hera McLeod 19:52
Yeah, so when Estela was born, my parents weren't living with me at the time. And when I went to have Issa, I thought to myself, like, you know, one of my biggest questions was like just logistics. I was like, what happens if one kid gets sick and has to go to the hospital and like, am I going to have to take the other one with me or like, have emergency childcare. And so I approached my parents and was like, "Hey, you know, I really want another child. And I know I'm gonna need your help." And so, I was like, "I could set this up as a mutually beneficial situation," because they're both semi-retired. So I got a house that had a separate living space for my parents, so that they felt like they could get away from the kids. But also, just so that someone was there. It's been amazing. I will say, like, I tell people all the time, I'm like, ain't nothing free. And so even though people are like, "Oh, this is amazing, you have free childcare." And I'm like, "Well, it's like, you know, you still spend political capital with the family every time you use it." And so I do think that one person can't possibly be everything for their children. And this is the case for any type of family. So there's always going to be something that families are going to need support from their village from. And so one example of this was when my oldest was learning how to ride a bike. I am really bad at hovering too much and keeping the training wheels on too long. And so I told my dad, I was like, "We're outsourcing this, and you're gonna do the bike riding training." And in a day, he had her riding a bike.
Anita Rao 21:26
That's amazing.
Hera McLeod 21:27
I know I couldn't have done that without him, because he just was like, "Well, you're just going to take the training wheels off and do it." And I'm not that type of mom, so.
Anita Rao 21:34
I want to go back to something you were talking about earlier about the stereotypes around Black single moms and the conversations that you have about that in the Mocha SMC group or conversations you have had about it. The term single mom is really loaded for a lot of people because of these assumptions about values and choices and circumstances. And I'm curious about your personal relationship to the term and how you think about calling yourself a single mom versus a single mom by choice.
Hera McLeod 22:04
I don't necessarily wear my single momness on my shoulder. There's probably lots of people at work, who assume there's, you know, like, a stay-at-home dad at home or like somebody like that. Estela and I have actually had this conversation before, because at that moment where someone questions you, and they're like, "Oh, well where's your husband?" And in Stela's construct it would be like, "Where's your dad?" And I told her, I said, you have to determine how much you care about the person on the other side. And, and that should prompt whether or not to give them more details, because you don't necessarily need to give them details if you don't want to go into this whole diatribe of educating them on, you know, the construct or what have you. But sometimes I do think it's necessary to, for me at least, a caveat with single mom by choice, because I think a lot of people, when they find out that there is no father in the picture, make lots of assumptions about oh, you know, like, like, Stela said, they'll be like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." But I needed them to understand like, there's, you know, you shouldn't feel sorry for me. Like, this is something I actively chose. And I feel very strongly about changing the narrative when it comes to, even with the single mother by choice community, I think people are - people have this vision in their head that it's, like, somebody who's 45, you know - is, is a 45-year-old virgin who couldn't find a man. Like, this is not - that's not the case, at least in my experience. Not to say that there aren't single moms by choice who, for whom this was not their first option. But there are also many of us who have options, who chose this because we felt like for us, this was the best option.
Anita Rao 23:38
Estela, I would love to end hearing a little bit about how you think about any potential family you might want some day. I know that's pretty far into the future. But I know you've talked about it a little bit on the podcast, and I'm curious what you think and what you'd want that family to look like.
Estela McLeod 23:57
So maybe a family that I would want in the future is like, I don't really know if I would want to be single or not. But I think I want to be single like mommy because it sounds fun. Because then, like, I can make my own decisions to like do with my kids. But like if I do become single, then I would probably have my kids', like, aunt or uncle live at least 20 minutes away. Or if we could, then they will be like our neighbors. And I would have their grandma and grandpa be neighbors. Because like maybe they wouldn't want them to be in the same house. Like it would just be pretty nice to like, be next to them.
Hera McLeod 24:45
So what you're saying is I can't live with you, but I can be your neighbor.
Estela McLeod 24:48
Yeah. (laughter) I'm not done. So then, like if we could then like we would actually have - I'm thinking of like being in a row house.
Hera McLeod 24:59
Oh, that would be a good idea. She's obviously thought of this.
Anita Rao 25:01
This is a deep plan.
Estela McLeod 25:02
So like, it would be an aunt and uncle, it would be like an aunt and uncle in one house, grandma and grandpa in the next. Or if they want to live separately, then grandma, then grandpa, and then me and my kids.
Anita Rao 25:16
Well, thank you both so much for talking with me. I've been talking with Hera and Estela McLeod, a mother and daughter based in Washington, D.C. It was a pleasure to meet you both. Thank you.
Hera McLeod 25:16
Thanks for having us
Estela McLeod 25:18
Thank you so much.
Maggie Ford 25:19
I found that as I got closer to 40, the men that I was dating were previously married and had children and didn't want to have more. So it put me in kind of a predicament, because I wasn't about to give up on my dream of becoming a mom. I think that if I hadn't done it, I would have always regretted it and always wondered, and always felt like a piece of me was missing. And now that I have my little baby, it is the best decision without a doubt. And I have absolutely no regrets. While it can be very challenging, it also has its benefits, and I'm loving every minute of it.
Tara Ilsley 26:07
I still can't believe that I'm someone's mom. I'm looking at airplanes and birds. And I've never kind of felt truer to who I wanted to be. And, yeah, it's just a delight. It is stressful. But at the end of the day, I am so happy that I chose this path. And sometimes, sometimes this path is easier. I only have to, you know, run a decision by me. There are lots and lots of bonuses and pluses to being a single mom by choice.
Mandi Miranda 26:51
I've always been independent, run my own business and have been capable of raising and providing for kids on my own. So I made the decision to become a solo mom, where everything was on my terms. I see it as an empowering journey to go on. One of self-discovery, growing your internal belief in yourself, in your body. Some of my friends are intimidated in the process or feel like if they go this route, they've failed in relationships, and they failed their timelines that they set for themselves. I see it as if I'm meant to find my soulmate slash significant other when I'm meant to. But if it's in my 50s or 60s or later in life, I wanted to be a mom. And I wasn't going to not pursue my dreams of becoming one. And there's nothing wrong with this route that I took in my journey.
Anita Rao 27:57
That was Maggie Ford, Tara Illsley and Mandi Miranda, all single mothers by choice. Bodily autonomy and reproductive agency were also at the heart of Dr. C. Nicole Mason's decision to become a single mother. Nicole has a PhD in political science and is the CEO and president emeritus of the Institute for Women's Policy Research. Hey, Nicole, welcome to Embodied.
C. Nicole Mason 28:19
Hi, glad to be here.
Anita Rao 28:22
So you were born and raised by a single mom yourself. Tell me a little bit about how growing up that way shaped your own thoughts and desires for your own family.
C. Nicole Mason 28:35
So I was raised by a single mother. She raised me and my brother, and she was married maybe 10 years later. And my early experience, she was a single mother. So she struggled. She was also a teenager, so she was a teenage single mom. And I knew that it was possible to raise children on your own. And I also knew that it was hard. And it was a lot of work. And when I decided to become a single mother by choice, I had my mother - experiences of mothering in the back of my mind. But I also believe that my experience as a single mother would be different for a lot of reasons. But I knew it was possible and not just because of her, but because of my community. I, you know, I'm a feminist. And so I, you know, surrounded by women who were living life on their own terms, and, you know, setting out on their own paths and journeys, so I knew that whatever I wanted to do was possible. I just had to do it.
Anita Rao 29:49
You started this journey when you were 33. You're working this high-powered, fast-paced job living in New York City. Take me back to that time and why you decided then that you wanted children.
C. Nicole Mason 30:03
So, it was a really fun time. I mean, if, you know, you can think about this moment. So I'm, I'm in New York City, I have this really great group of girlfriends. I'm also, this is like after "Sex and the City," so I feel like I'm living the dream. And I knew that I wanted to be a mother and didn't know what that was going to look like. And I don't know how I decided that I could probably do it myself, because I didn't have a lot of information. But I believed that it was possible. And I remember sitting at a bar with a group of girlfriends, and this is like what we did after work. And I told them by plan, I was like, "I think I'm gonna have children. I'm gonna do it by myself." And they were pretty shocked.
Anita Rao 30:53
What did they say?
C. Nicole Mason 30:55
They were like, "Are you serious? Like, what are you talking about?" I said, "Well, I think, you know, I want to do this." And after a few questions, because, you know, we had been drinking, you know, they saw that I was serious. And, and then they said, "Okay, let's do it." And that was it. And I - that's when I started on the journey. And it was, you know, a real, I think, learning journey.
Anita Rao 31:23
In the span of just two months, Nicole went from a "Sex and the City"-style New York life to being pregnant with twins. And that meant a whole renegotiation of social life, home life and career. Just ahead, we'll hear more about that transition and how she's approached dating and romance as a single mother by choice. We'll get to that in just a moment. I'm Anita Rao, and you're listening to Embodied, a show about sex, relationships and health that takes on the taboo. Single mothers have long been maligned in the court of public opinion and are frequently targeted by politicians. Despite a history of negative connotations, the single mothers by choice we met for today's show are proudly claiming that identity.
Erin Molson 32:10
It's not something tragic, it's not something sad. Being a solo parent is hard, don't get me wrong. I wish I had a second income every day without having some dude in my house. But in a way, it's also easier because especially when you have a newborn, you have one relationship to maintain, and you can focus everything on that. And I feel like if I was also trying to maintain a marriage or a partnership, that's harder.
Kat Curtin 32:45
I wish people knew that being a single mother by choice doesn't mean raising your child alone. There's a vibrant community of SMCs as well as tons of people who want to help. One of the first important things that I did was joining single mothers by choice.org and realize that there were tons of women just like me, who are going down this path or already mothering.
Erin Molson 33:13
And then also I made the decisions. I got to choose how she was fed, what we did for sleep training, you know, all of that stuff. And a lot of my friends with babies at the same time were having problems where their partner has different ideas on what they want to do for the child and - or they have different parenting methods that are maybe at odds with the mom. So in a way it's freeing. And also I get all the snugs. I don't have to, like, share it with anyone else. And I feel like that's the best part.
Anita Rao 33:50
That was Erin Molson and Kat Curtin, members of SMC, an online community group for single mothers by choice all over the world. Community and support systems are top of mind for single mother by choice Dr. C. Nicole Mason, who is currently parenting two teenage twins. So before the break, we were talking about your decision many years ago to embark on this path. You got pregnant with twins shortly after you started IVF and you were actually dating someone at that time. I would love to hear about how pregnancy shaped your approach to dating and relationships.
C. Nicole Mason 34:28
So I decided that I wanted to become pregnant and I - that was, I had my last drink on New Year's Eve, because I was going to start the process in, in January of that year, 2009. And by February I was pregnant. And by that - at that time, I was, had just started dating someone. We were five months in, into our dating relationship, and she was all for it. But I don't think either one of us knew what it meant. And she was great and very supportive, and we dated for a pretty long time. But I still always felt like a single mom, because I was financially responsible for the children, making all the decisions. We had a long-distance relationship for much of our time together. And then after we broke up, I continued to date. It was fun. But my children were always a priority. And so now that my children are older, and I continue to date, it's, you know, they have a say. They have opinions, and it's great, but - and, for me, they are, you know, my primary relationships. I'm really very invested in their well-being. And so making sure that I'm very intentional about who comes in and out of our lives.
Anita Rao 35:51
Yeah, I'm curious about that kind of separation of someone that you want to pursue a romantic relationship with and someone that you would potentially want to co-parent with or invite in in a more intimate way. How did thinking about that over the course of your kids lives evolve? Were you pretty sure you never wanted a co-parent? Or what was your thinking on that?
C. Nicole Mason 36:14
You know, I'm focused on a lot of things. I'm very focused in, like my career, just focused in terms of becoming a mom. But my dating life, I have to say, has been a little haphazard. And so, you know, I've dated people where they have taken on an active role in the kids' lives. And that's been cool. And some relationships are more casual, and they never meet my children. So it just really depends on the person. And, you know, our connection and dynamic. And I think, you know, it's hard to date any way, but being a single person with children, it's, it maybe creates an additional hurdle. But, you know, I just kind of, I go with the flow, you know, in terms of dating.
Anita Rao 37:02
We heard Hera talk earlier about these moments where she's kind of come up against people's assumptions about this choice, and what it means about how she thinks about men and fathers or how she, her, her views on kind of partnership. I'm curious about what that looked like for you in the early days with your kids. How did folks in your life receive you and, and in your family?
C. Nicole Mason 37:29
So it's, it's really different. So like, you know, there's a stereotype or stereotypes about Black single mothers. And so there's a lot of that happening while you're pregnant, whether or not you know, whatever your circumstances are, like, or how you became pregnant. So, with strangers, especially professionally, I would always get questions about the father, or, you know, "Are you going to stop working one you, you know, become a mom, or what's going to happen?" And so, you know, those questions had a lot of assumptions baked into them. And so, because I felt like people were being presumptuous or making assumptions, I had the right to be really frank, and the discomfort that I may have been feeling, I said, "Well, you know, it's not fair that I just, I get to feel all this discomfort, you know, here you go." Would say, "Well, you know, that I, you know, I'm not married, and I'm a single mother by choice," or, you know, whatever I wanted to share. And, you know, it opened up a conversation. And, you know, it was also a moment to educate people about, like, you know, there's many ways to start a family. So that's that. And with my family, I have to say, I live in Washington, D.C., most of my family lives in California. And my family was very supportive. And I think because they, just in general are very nontraditional. So we have all kinds of different types of family setup, so dynamics, in, you know, in our family, our larger family. So I received a lot of support. In fact, my grandmother, who was about 70 at the time my twins were born volunteered to come and help, and I'm a very, you know, do it yourself kind of person. And so I said, "Well, you know, I really don't need help, but you can come for like a week or two." And she ended up coming and staying for 18 months. So it was like me, her, the twins, a cat and a dog in a one bedroom apartment in New York City. God bless this woman's soul. And it was great. I mean, thinking back on it was really great, very chaotic, obviously, because there's a lot of - a lot going on, but it was pretty great. But if it weren't for her, I don't believe I could have gone back to work. Childcare for two babies was really expensive in New York City. So I felt very fortunate.
Anita Rao 39:56
You mentioned earlier your commitment to career and work and that - how that's been a big part of your life and your experience as a parent. And just two days after giving birth to your twins, you showed up to teach a class that you were instructing at NYU. I've, I've got to know what made you show up that day?
C. Nicole Mason 40:17
Well, uh, frankly, I think I was delirious and a little bit out of my mind. But I also had this idea that I could have it all, I could do it all. Like you could still, you know, I could have these two babies and go back to work two days later and not skip a beat. And, yeah, I mean, I, when I walked into that classroom, the students were like, "Why are you here?" And I was like, "I'm back, I'm fine." And thinking back, I just think that I thought that my life was not going to change that much. I was just gonna go back to normal and - but it had shifted overnight. And I realized that like, some things did have to shift. And so I reconfigured my career for a little while so that I could really do this mom thing in a way that made sense for me.
Anita Rao 41:06
I'd love to talk more about the economics of motherhood and how your experience being a single mom by choice has shaped your thinking about this. You had the experience of, kind of having those demands of your career and wanting to be present and being able to shift some things around. But what, I guess, have you come up against in terms of the ways you want to see us thinking differently about caregiving from your experience as an SMC?
C. Nicole Mason 41:37
Well, again, you know, I want to say that my experience as a single mom is different from the experiences of a lot of single moms. You know, I feel very fortunate. Because of my education, I have a lot of options, and in my career as well. But what is true across the board - whether you have a high-powered career, or you are a low-income, single mother really struggling to make ends meet - having community and support around you is really important. But also, really thinking for me, the big thing was childcare. For many families, childcare can consume up to 30% of their income, sometimes more. And that's a significant chunk of money going out the door for childcare each month. And as, for a single mother, it's even more. And so that's what makes it hard. It's not because we're not married, or we don't have a husband or a partner. It's because society is not set up to support not only moms, but families in general.
Anita Rao 42:50
At the time that you had your kids, you were one of the first in your friend group to do so. Now more of your friends have become parents, I'm curious about what it's been like for you to watch your path as compared to theirs, and if your thoughts or feelings about your own decision have shifted at all after watching their experience.
C. Nicole Mason 43:12
No. So what was great, and I think that if you see something, you know, if you see somebody doing something that you thought was impossible, or you thought you needed to have all these things in place, and you see them do it, then it makes it possible, you can imagine it for yourself. I was the first person in our friend group to do it or become a mom. And so they asked a lot of questions. And many of them went on their own journey. Many of them have partners, I have other friends who are also single mothers by choice. But what I've enjoyed most is being a resource and talking to them honestly about my experience from the beginning to the end, from deciding, to choosing a donor, to affording children, to the changes that happen in your life, to dating. So being able to be a resource has been really great. And being able to share my experience has been really great. And, in fact, my larger community, with my twins, like, they've seen them from, like, birth until teenagers, so they feel like they know them. And so, you know, when the kids turn 18 and they, you know, are going away, I'm gonna have a big party and invite anybody who's ever been a part of their lives, because I think it's just really important to just celebrate the community that gets built around family or chosen family.
Anita Rao 44:45
I'd love to hear more about your kids' reflections on their experience being parented by a single mom by choice. We heard Estela earlier, and her feelings that that's the path that she wants for herself too. She sees it as a great option and possibility. How have your own kids' thinking shifted as they've gotten older?
C. Nicole Mason 45:06
Well, you know, so I've been very open and honest about my journey with them. So they know that they are donor-conceived. And, you know, that, it's just normal, it's just normal for them. They both talk about having children - one boy, one girl - and they just believe they're gonna do it. They're just like, "Well, you know, when I have kids, I'm gonna," they just talk about it. And they know that it could happen any, a myriad of ways. It could be, you know, with a partner, or it could be the way I chose. And I think that's beautiful, because they just don't see the boundaries, the societal boundaries. They know that anything, pretty much is possible. And what they also know, I believe, is that they can have a good life. I think, again, society has a really negative perception of single mothers and what their life must be like, like, it's full of struggle, it's full of heartache. And what I'm happy about is that, like, we've had a really very joyful life, and they have this really great experience. I ask them sometimes, I've asked them before about wanting a father, or do they think about it, and I don't know if they don't want to hurt my feelings or what, I just want to say that, but um, they are pretty solid. They, they, they are pretty solid. And I think it's because of me, but also, we have a really great support system as well.
Anita Rao 46:45
Your kids are going to head off to college in, in a couple of years. You mentioned earlier kind of wanting to celebrate the end of this chapter. What are your other hopes and plans for these last few years living together?
C. Nicole Mason 46:59
So let me just tell you something, you know, this adolescence, like teenage years are supposed to be, like, the hardest years for parenting, and I'm just having a really great time.
Anita Rao 47:10
That's amazing. (laughs)
C. Nicole Mason 47:12
They're so funny. They're so witty, I like them as human beings. And I like the people that they are becoming. And I'm really proud of the job I've done mothering them. And it's just been really great to, you know, see our journey together. And I, I want to say that because this was an intentional choice, I've really been very deliberate, like, this has been 18 years of intentional parenting. And if you've been a parent, you know that, like, being intentional and being very thoughtful and mindful is - it's a task. And so I'm actually a bit relieved, I have to be honest, that, you know, 18 is coming, and they're gonna go off into the world and become who they're meant to become. And I feel like I deserve a cruise around the world for something like, something fabulous and kid-free. So I'm looking forward to their next chapter, but also my next chapter.
Anita Rao 48:29
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast, consider a contribution at wunc.org now. Special thanks to Tara Illsley, Maggie Ford, Mandi Miranda, Erin Molson and Kat Curtin for contributing to this week's show. We appreciate you.
This episode was produced by Paige Miranda and edited by Amanda Magnus. Kaia Findlay also produces for our show, Skylar Chadwick is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Quilla wrote our theme music.
If you have any thoughts after listening to this episode, we would love to hear them. Leave us a voicemail in our virtual mailbox SpeakPipe. You can find that link in the show notes. Or you could write a review of this podcast, let us know why you listen or share your favorite episode with a friend. We so appreciate your support.
Until next time, I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.