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Lifted: Podcast Transcript

Anita Rao 0:02
I came of age in the Spice Girls and Britney era, when the feminine body type most often celebrated on the cover of my Seventeen Magazine was very thin with minimal curves. In my 35 years on this planet, narratives about the ideal body shape have shifted. But what's been particularly striking is the story of the butt.

Youtube Voice 1 0:27
I've been praying for a butt for 26 years finally, finally I got one.

Youtube Voice 2 0:34
Okay, so today I want to talk about a question I get a lot, and that is how big can you get your butt?

Youtube Voice 3 0:41
I like my little butt and I cannot lie.

Anita Rao 0:47
What makes the perfect butt has gone from small, to big, to bigger. And as these beauty standards have evolved, so too have the procedures designed to help you attain them. And there was one surgery in particular that my Instagram feed will not let me avoid: the Brazilian butt lift, or the BBL. The BBL has become the fastest growing plastic surgery procedure in recent memory. But why? And what is its rise in popularity tell us about what we desire for our bodies?

This is Embodied, our show about sex relationships and your health. I'm Anita Rao. It's the surgery on everyone's lips.

Drake 1:31
They say love's like a BBL, you won't know if it's real

SZA 1:36
Remind you of Della Reese / So classic, that *** so fat, it look natural, it's not.

Megan Thee Stallion 1:42
All these lil rap ****** so fraud /
Xanax be they hardest bars
/ These ***** hate on BBL's
/ And be walking around with the same scars (aye) /
Real curvy, no etching

Anita Rao 1:49
Take it from Drake, SZA and Megan Thee Stallion. The BBL is everywhere. It was developed in the 1960s by plastic surgeon Dr. Ivo Pitanguy.

Dr. Carmen Jarrin 2:01
Ivo Pitanguy is probably the most famous plastic surgeon in Brazilian history. Super well known, a household name. And the way he became so famous is he got support from the state in the 1960s to offer plastic surgery for the working class. And Ivo Pitanguy doubled this center for the poor as a medical school. And it allowed him to experiment and develop all these new techniques because they had this huge population of working class Brazilians willing to take the risk. So one of the techniques that he developed eventually became called the Brazilian butt lift.

Anita Rao 2:51
Dr. Pitanguy's BBL blueprint was designed to lift and tighten sagging butts. The modern day procedure is a bit more involved. Surgeons transfer fat from one area of the body like the thighs, arms or midsection, into the buttocks. And this dual procedure of liposuction in one area and fat transfer somewhere else means doctors can now address a longer list of patient desires.

Dr. Kelly Bolden 3:18
First and foremost, a lot of these patients come from different perspectives when they approach wanting a BBL. So some of the patients come in trying to improve the contour on someone who had a deflated buttocks. That's one clientele that we'll get. We also get people who sometimes just truly want bigger, bigger, bigger.

Anita Rao 3:36
That's Dr. Kelly Bolden. She's a plastic surgeon and medical director at Cultura Plastic Surgery, where she regularly performs BBLs. She's also a clinical assistant professor at Howard University. Every BBL patient she sees starts the process the same way, with a pre-op consultation. Dr. Bolden will review their health history and talk to them about their operation goals. She also looks at their celebrity inspo pics and identifies which body areas to harvest the fat from. Most people that she sees get fat removed from their back midsection. But how do you actually move fat from one part of the body to another? I'm gonna save you some time Googling and watching surgery videos and let Dr. Bolden take it from here.

Dr. Kelly Bolden 4:22
So on average, I would say most patients probably yield somewhere between three and five liters of fat that's suctioned using a liposuction cannula. We collect that fat into a canister that's a closed system so that that fat is not exposed to air or exposed to any other things that might cause contamination. Then prior to processing the fat what we usually do is we'll wash the fat with sterile saline. I actually add antibiotic solution to my fat as well but you'll find different surgeons use different techniques. And then in essence, that fat that has been removed, we're literally just re injecting that fat back into the buttock.

Anita Rao 5:00
So I've watched some of these procedures online, it is a very physical procedure for the physician. There was a lot of like pumping of things, you have to be really careful and cautious about kind of how you're holding these cannulas,

Dr. Kelly Bolden 5:12

Anita Rao 5:12
where you're positioning them. Talk to me about that and and why BBLs have become known as so risky. Like what is it about the surgery anatomically that makes it so high risk?

Dr. Kelly Bolden 5:23
So the first portion of the procedure that can be risky is the liposuction itself. So the most dreaded complication of liposuction would be if the cannula was to go into someplace and it's not intended to go. I.e., say it went into the abdomen and injured bowel or, you know, got into the chest cavity or something like that. Those are extraordinarily rare in the hands of board-certified plastic surgeons. But that is always a risk. Then when we talk about the transfer of fat, the things that we have to keep in mind is that we want to make sure that we're not injecting fat into blood vessels. That's the biggest risk of the BBL is injecting fat into a blood vessel and that fat traveling through the blood vessel and coming into the heart and the lung, and causing what we call a fat emboli, because that can be deadly. So when we're injecting the fat, we're really wanting to stay in what we call the subcutaneous space, which is that space right above the muscle and in all the fat that actually provides the cushion to the buttocks. But because of that, that's going to limit the amount of fat that you can actually inject, and not all people are going to be created equal in that respect. But I really, really let the patient's body let me know how much fat they're gonna tolerate. And I just kind of try to make sure that I'm putting it in planes that are acceptable, that I'm getting as much surface area covered with the fat that's injected and that the fat's not necessarily just kind of spitting back at me every time I inject the fat.

Anita Rao 6:48
At one point in the past decade, the Brazilian butt lift was considered one of the most dangerous cosmetic procedures in the world. Luckily, the mortality rate has improved. It's now about one in 15,000, according to a 2020 study. But Dr. Bolden cautions that it's still really important for patients to be mindful about who does their procedure. While plastic surgeons undergo many years of rigorous training, they are not the only ones out there doing BBLs. There have been several documented instances of folks without the proper credentials performing the procedure. But and still — no pun intended — many people are getting BBLs and documenting the entire arc of their journey online.

Ronte' Jentel on Youtube7:38
Good morning, and welcome back to my channel. So this video will be my journey to Miami. My pre-op is tomorrow and my surgery is on Friday. I can't believe it's already here.

Anita Rao 7:54
Meet Ronte' Jentel. Ronte' is a video blogger and personality who has a multi-part series about his BBL journey on YouTube.

Ronte' Jentel 8:02
I mean, I looked at a lot of different bodies and shapes, and none of them really fit me. I'm very short, I'm five four. I also am a male, but I'm nonbinary at the same time. So really was looking at shape and contour was more of the perspective I had, rather than, you know, replicating someone's entire butt, and getting it just bigger. I just really wanted roundness.

Anita Rao 8:24
Ronte' says that he's grappled with his body image from a young age. But it wasn't until his late teens that he started thinking about plastic surgery. He got liposuction in 2020 and then decided to pursue a BBL. He was living in Boston at the time but flew to Miami for his procedure.

Ronte' Jentel 8:41
I felt like the conversations were a bit short. And that's because I went to Miami where, you know, it's a bit cheaper and more mass produced as far as plastic surgeries. But my providers were all very nice, very welcoming. They really listened to what I had to say as far as my body outcome and body look. And I felt comfortable with them. You know, I did a lot of research beforehand, watching their Instagrams when they would go on live, I would always hop on and listen to them. I did consultations beforehand. So I really did my due diligence to make sure I felt comfortable with them. And they got me the results that I wanted at then end.

Anita Rao 9:17
You mentioned that you got your procedure done in Miami, which has become a really popular place to get a BBL. And alongside kind of the growth in facilities doing it have been these recovery houses, which is a place where you can kind of pay to have a place to heal after your surgery. Can you talk a bit about your recovery process and why you chose to go to one of these places.

Ronte' Jentel 9:38
Um, during my first surgery, I chose to stay in a hotel with a few friends. And they were in the medical field in college but they weren't necessarily professionals. So they helped me and I felt safe with them. But you know, it's different having someone who's professional and doesn't have that close relationship with you. So the second time around with my BBL I paid for a recovery home and it was a great experience. They fed me, I had my own room, you know, they washed my clothes, my faja, they helped me with my medicine, they really took care of me. And I think the biggest benefit from a recovery home was the people that I stayed with. And we call each other surgery sisters. You know, we went through surgery at the same time, we talked about our life experiences, what we wanted and were there for each other. It was me and two other girls really that were close. And we all had surgeries on different days. So we would prepare each other each day and talk to each other the day after. So it was really nice to have that community of people that fully understood what you were going through.

Anita Rao 10:32
You mentioned the faja, which is a garment that you're recommended to wear post surgery. Can you describe what exactly this is and what it is like to wear one?

Ronte' Jentel 10:42
Oh, the fajas. So that's honestly the most annoying part for me through this surgery. It is very, very important for, you know, the official outlook of your body. But it is very restricting. It's used for compression to help, you know, fluid exit your body and shape your skin and your new shape and everything. But it's very, very uncomfortable to wear. You know, when you get your new body, you want to show it off a little bit wearing nice clothes. And you'd have to be very cognizant of what you're wearing when you have a faja because you have to wear it for several weeks after your surgery.

Anita Rao 11:16
I have heard that the recovery can be really brutal. Can you talk about some of the adjustments you had to make in your life post surgery to help you recover?

Ronte' Jentel 11:24
Yeah, especially after the BBL, I had to use my BBL pillow to sit for the next several weeks. At first I didn't sit at all. I stood. I was commuting when I lived in Boston at the time to work. So I would just stand on the bus instead of sitting in a seat. And I had a standing desk, which was pretty nice. So I was able to work from there as well. And then when I got to the point where I wanted to sit a little bit, I would put the BBL pillow which goes underneath your thighs by like your knees. And so that way your butt isn't touching the seat. And so that was the biggest adjustment. And, you know, you're in public doing all of this. And I was very comfortable with my coworkers and open with them and they knew everything that was going on, so that wasn't a problem for me. But I mean, aside from that, it was summertime, so it was really hot and then wearing the faja and the foams, and it's a lot. But you know, we got through it.

Anita Rao 11:26
After the stitches have healed and the fajas are out of the picture, there is still more to the journey. Only about 50 to 60% of the fat that's grafted into the butt during a BBL grows a blood supply. Which means that the body you have right out of surgery will not be the same shape you see in the mirror six months later. These constant physical changes can take a significant psychological toll. And I was curious to know how Ronte' dealt with that in the wake of his surgery.

Ronte' Jentel 12:59
Mental health is definitely a very important part of this process. And it is a struggle, or at least it was for me. I really prioritized therapy at the beginning of my process, when I was doing my research and everything. I think it's really important to be in the right mind space, to be at peace with yourself, especially going under anesthesia. I posted videos on my YouTube about my surgery weeks and weeks after the actual events occurred because I receive a lot of comments. Most of them are pretty, you know, nasty. A few good ones here and there. But posting those later, and the weeks or months later, allowed me to go through my healing process with my body as it was changing before I shared that story with the entire Internet.

Anita Rao 13:43
When you posted your first video about liposuction to YouTube, there's only one other masculine-identifying person who had posted about their experience. Have you seen the landscape of men seeking and documenting their BBLs evolve online?

Ronte' Jentel 13:56
Yes, certainly. In the last several years, there have been many, many, many stories of males or men that are also sharing online. But I felt like for time people were living in a state of fear or secrecy about plastic surgery, but it's really way more prevalent than you may think. So definitely I see all the time across social media platforms.

Anita Rao 14:19
So Dr. Bolden, a procedure like the BBL obviously changes your body shape to fit a particular aesthetic ideal. I'm curious about the role you see yourself and others in your industry playing in the psychological component of this, and in the bigger kind of cultural component of diversifying beauty standards. Like, do you see that as possible as part of your work?

Dr. Kelly Bolden 14:40
I most certainly do. The beauty of plastic surgery is that aesthetics is very subjective. So it's important that each surgeon has their own aesthetic but that you're also having that two-way relationship with your patient. I do think it's important. I think that we as plastic surgeons do have a duty to make sure that while we're trying to help people achieve their aesthetic, that we're not doing anything that is going to harm a patient. So sometimes I am a bit taken aback by some of the things that I see because I think that what they're doing is maybe satisfying what a patient wants, but it's probably not necessarily what is safe and best for the patient medically. Our role is to understand what is going on psychosocially, is plastic surgery right for you? But I think that that does take a more mature surgeon to make that decision to tell a patient, "You know, maybe now is not the time." And the average plastic surgeon is going to, you know, give you the appropriate feedback and let you know, if these are your aesthetic goals, here are the things that we need to do to make sure that those goals can be met, both physically but as well as psychologically and socially.

Anita Rao 15:49
Ronte', I know that you were once really active in the BBL community online, and you have taken some space and distance from that in the wake of your surgery, in part because of mental health. Could you talk to me a little bit about that, and how you saw that space affecting how you were thinking about your own body?

Ronte' Jentel 16:08
Yeah, of course, I really went into that kind of space and world of social media initially for research purposes. And it was very helpful for creating community. But after my surgeries, I found it to be a bit exhaustive, you know, certain people going for round three, four or five, doing this, doing that. And you know, that's fine for certain people if they want to do that. But for me, I knew what I wanted to do. And I did it. And that was kind of the end of my plastic surgery journey, at least for right now. And having that constant information flowing into your newsfeed, and always just in your mind, it just wasn't healthy for me. Because I knew I was at a place where I was comfortable. And I didn't want to be pushed outside of that.

Anita Rao 16:08
You identify as queer and nonbinary, I'm curious about the role that your BBL has played in your gender journey.

Ronte' Jentel 17:00
Yeah, it has been great. It has been extremely affirming for me. Physical kind of expression was one of the biggest things I wanted to change as I got to become an adult. But I'm bringing myself closer to the way that I envision myself to be and express myself in that way. And I'm really happy with my results.

Anita Rao 17:19
Ronte' I'd love to close with you talking a bit about the stigma that exists around getting plastic surgery. There's kind of this tension between the way we praise a certain aesthetic, like Kim Kardashian's butt, versus the stigma that exists around getting plastic surgery. How do you see that stigma showing up in your own life? And how do you navigate it?

Ronte' Jentel 17:38
I think it's very prevalent. I think a lot of people want that level of comfort feeling that they are socially acceptable. But at the same time, people feel that they need to also have the approval of others. And that may cause them to not go through with a process such as plastic surgery. So for me, it was more about being in tune with myself and ignoring what other people have to say and feeling comfortable and confident with your journey and what you want, and not letting other people affect that. But again, I think it also comes back to your mental health. I think that's first and foremost. Do what you think is best for you, and what you want out of your life because no one else can do that besides you.

Anita Rao 18:33
If you're old enough to be listening to this, then I know that you too have seen butt trends shift dramatically in your lifetime. But just in case you aren't a 90s kid, indulge me for a second with a little time travel.

Sir Mix-a-Lot 18:47
Oh my God, Becky, look at her butt. It is so big /
Uh, I can't believe it's just so round, it's like out there /
I mean, uh, gross, look /
She's just so, Black. /
I like big butts and I cannot lie /
You other brothers can't deny

Dr. Alisha Gaines 19:06
I am from Northeast Ohio and I'm born in 1980. And so that is a pre Sir Mix-a-Lot era that I was growing up in where flat butts were the thing. The worst possible thing you could hear, you know, as you're asking your girlfriends and friends, "Does my butt look big in this?" And, like, yes. Right? That's the worst thing you can hear in the 80s and early 90s. That has completely changed now. Growing up I remember a particular pair of Gap khaki pants that I bought because they had this strange flattening effect on my backside that I found at the time flattering for like, 1991.

Anita Rao 19:49
That's Dr. Alisha Gaines. She's an associate professor of English at Florida State University. Alicia has thought a lot about why some beauty trends are the way they are, and what that says about power. She expanded upon these ideas and her book "Black For a Day: White Fantasies of Race and Empathy." It explores how body modifications are often linked to racial impersonation. And she thinks that this is very much at play with the rise of the BBL.

Dr. Alisha Gaines 20:17
I don't want to put everything on social media, but social media is part of this. And also, I don't think you can have this conversation in the United States without invoking Kim Kardashian. And wherever Kim Kardashian goes that butt follows and influences a lot of people. Kim has made an empire out of cosplaying Black womanhood. And she is, and her family, they are masterful at selling us things that we may or may not need. And part of that has been selling this particular type of kind of Instagram hourglass shape that includes that perfect peachy, butt.

Anita Rao 20:58
You knew it was coming. In order to fully understand the cultural implications of the BBL, we must discuss the woman whose name has practically become synonymous with the procedure: Kim Kardashian, I should note that Kim has adamantly denied getting the surgery. However, many still cite her figure as an inspiration for their own behind. Kim, BBLs and yo-yoing beauty standards are just one small part of a much longer history of the exoticization of the Black body. An important place to start in understanding how we got here is the story of a woman named Saartjie Baartman.

Dr. Alisha Gaines 21:35
Baartman was a young Black woman who lived on the coast of South Africa. And issues around consent here get a bit hazy, but she was publicly displayed at Piccadilly Circus in London and on other European stages, including in Paris between 1810 and 1815, under the name of "The Hottentot Venus." And so Hottentot being this kind of racial slur, and then Venus invoking sort of, you know, this kind of perfect goddess. And so the name is supposed to be ridiculing, it's supposed to be nearly an oxymoron. She had a voluptuous body, a large butt, wide hips. And so she was displayed as kind of a curiosity for white Europeans who could pay money to gawk at her, to make fun of her, to even poke or prod her. She was seen as something that was so different than the Eurocentric white ideals of what it means to be a beautiful woman and have a beautiful womanly shape.

Anita Rao 22:41
So she spent years performing in front of audiences, like you talked about in England and then in France, and then in her death, her body was further objectified, basically. An anatomist dissected her body, displayed it in a collection at the Museum of Mankind in Paris, and those remains were on display in some form well into the late 20th century. I guess, how do you see the lasting effects of how her body was displayed and talked about in the context of the history of the BBL?

Dr. Alisha Gaines 23:12
She is emblematic of this long history of the fetishization of the Black body, but I don't know any more horrifying story honestly than Baartman. I mean, she died so young, she was only 27. And like you said, she was studied intensely by different, like, put scientists in quotes, anatomists in quotes, and then — and dissected, and her remains were displayed into the I believe in 1960s. I believe that her remains were finally returned so she could rest in 2002. So just the long exploitation and objectification even in death of Baartman that has a long history for her and her legacy and Black women in general.

Anita Rao 23:57
In the decades after her death, the bustle as a fashion item rose to prominence and some people have tied Saartjie Baartman and her body and the ways it was kind of objectified by European audiences to then this desire to imitate it with a bustle. Can you talk to me a bit about that and how you think about the bustle in our evolving perceptions of butts and beauty?

Dr. Alisha Gaines 24:21
Sure, well, I'm not a historian of costuming or fashion, but I do see the linkages that other people are making between the popularity of the bustle and the legacy of Baartman. We have things that made your skirt more voluminous before Baartman. But in that kind of roughly 50 years after her death, it really comes to prominence in that kind of bustle that's extending the backside. And you can't look at those images of those mostly white women wearing those dresses and not think about Baartman standing on those pedestals in front of leering strangers. And I think that curiosity then gets reanimated with the bustle, um, where you can, "Well what if I did look like that kind of overly hypersexual woman? But the difference is Baartman can't take off her backside. But I can take this hoop skirt off and still be the proper little white woman that I'm supposed to be."

Anita Rao 25:18
We've talked about white women getting a BBL. But I'm curious about what the rise of it as a procedure of sought after by Black and brown women says to you about beauty and power.

Dr. Alisha Gaines 25:29
It is dizzying to be a Black woman who — we are largely taught in many different ways that we are not the ideal. We're not the standard. We're not the standard of beauty, and all these kind of racist ways. And then to see the popularity of something that Black women are often denigrated for having being celebrated on the bodies of white women is kind of like, "Whoa, okay." I remember being shocked. Because the very things that I was teased for, as a kid growing up in Northeast Ohio, are now the things that white women are doing. They are plumping their lips, and they're getting BBLs to have butts that look like many Black women. But if you are a Black woman who doesn't look like that naturally, that's also kind of disrupting to your sense of self. Because if this is supposed to be what a Black woman looks like, and I don't look like that, then what must I do to still be part of that kind of sexual economy and be seen as beautiful in this moment. That is how racist beauty standards in this country work to continually denigrate the very Black bodies that they then fetishize on this kind of aesthetic buffet.

Anita Rao 26:43
What's interesting about social media to me is that it makes it really easy to see this particular aesthetic in a context devoid of race. Like, there are Instagram models of all racial and ethnic backgrounds with this body type. And I'm imagining some people getting the BBL might not even associate a BBL with cultural appropriation. Do you think that BBLs are inherently cultural appropriation? Or is there some gray area here?

Dr. Alisha Gaines 27:11
I don't think it's inherently anything, but to once again invoke Sir Mix-a-Lot's "Baby Got Back."

Anita Rao 27:17

Dr. Alisha Gaines 27:18
Right? In that, in that opening, little intro, when, you know, the valley girl kind of character's like, "Oh, my God, Becky, look at her butt. It's so big," and she's talking about it. "It's so gross." And at the end of that, she said, "It's just so Black." And she spits it out in this way that's like, "Oh, it's so Black." Even then, in 1992, we knew that this association of big butts was of something about Black womanhood. So maybe now in 2024, on Instagram, you might look at all these women's shapely hourglass figures and not immediately think Blackness, but it's there. Whether you want to admit it or not.

Anita Rao 28:04
And just as quickly as it has arrived, the full butt trend of the 2010s has already begun to deflate. There are ample rumors that celebrities like Kim K have reversed their BBLs, and these changes are also showing up in the clinic. Dr. Bolden told us that her patients are no longer requesting a butt as big as possible, and instead favoring a more subtle contour.

As Alisha said earlier, dizzying is kind of the perfect word to describe all of this. And what's so very dizzying about body augmentation to me, is that it's impossible to decouple one person's desire for a certain body shape from the cultural context that they are in. We are constantly receiving mixed messages about the kind of bodies that are valued and seen as beautiful. And despite some very real strides made by the body positivity movement, it's still true that we're culturally focused on the body as a site of power. While the next big thing may not be butts, I'm left pondering what these shifting tides will mean for how cosmetic surgery trends continue to evolve. And more importantly, who is left behind when things inevitably change. For now, Alicia has hung up her ass-flattening khakis, and instead focusing her energy elsewhere.

Dr. Alisha Gaines 29:30
So I'm a woman of a particular age Anita, as you mentioned before. And so now, in a body that I am growing more aware of its aging, I am much more focused on being healthy, and being grateful that I'm still here and things are still working for the most part. Though it's lots of yoga and making sure I take walks and jogs. This is about managing stress and things like that. I am less interested in sort of the flattering pants that I was so concerned with when I was in junior high in high school, but that's just the gift of growing up I think.

Anita Rao 30:29
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast consider a contribution at now. If you want to learn more about Dr. Bolden, watch Ronte's latest blog, or check out Alisha's book, you can find links in the show notes of this episode. And while you're there, make sure to follow us on our social platforms, where you can see bonus content for each of our episodes.

Special thanks to Daniel Lombroso, the director of the New Yorker documentary, "You'll Be Happier." And Dr. Carmen Alvaro Jarrin. We appreciate your contributions.

This episode was produced by Paige Miranda and edited by Kaia Findlay. Gabriela Glueck also produces for our show. Skylar Chadwick is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Amanda Magnus is our regular editor and Quilla wrote our theme music.

Before we go, I want to say thank you to those of you who respond to our call saying that we want to hear from you because we really do. Here are two very thoughtful messages we got in response to our self help show from earlier this year.

Beverly 31:37
I just listened to your self help episode. And as you were wrapping up and talking about the lack of diversity and inclusivity in the self help space, I was super surprised that the book by Sonya Renee Taylor, "The Body Is Not An Apology," didn't come up because it encompasses so many of the things that are lacking in all those other books, and really helped me to see things in new ways.

Wilma 32:08
I actually am a self help writer, I wrote a book called "Surviving: Why We Stay and How We Leave Abusive Relationships." I can attest that it's really difficult to get published as a Black woman in self help — particularly if you're writing about how a specific social issue connects to other social issues. Or if you're queer, or if your perspective is not white, mainstream or triumphant. There are people out here, people of color, Black women, queer women, who are trying really hard to be represented in self help and loved the episode.

Anita Rao 32:53
Thank you so much to Beverly and Wilma. And Wilma, yes, I've heard so much about that book by Sonya Renee Taylor. And it is actually one of the ones that Kristen and Jolenta highlight as among their favorites of the self help books that they've reviewed. Thank you for your knowledge and I'm going to put it on my reading list.

If any of y'all listening have thoughts after hearing this show or any other we want to hear from you. Leave us a voicemail in our virtual mailbox SpeakPipe. You can find the link in our show notes. We would also love for you to write us a review and let us know why you listen to this show. Or text your favorite episode to a friend. Word of mouth recommendations are the best way to support this podcast.

Until next time, I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.

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