Charlie
I believe that my personal concept and internalization of masculinity is guided by three big things. And those are being vulnerable, community, and service. There is a strong link between personal growth and vulnerability, and there is a lot of strength rooted in that connection.
Donat
In my upbringing as a Dominican, a lot of masculinity came from a place of exuding power in order to replace fear. In my experience now as a 33-year-old man, masculinity has become about accepting where I am powerless. More often than not, I find myself finding power not by exuding it, but by being of service. I've kind of learned that my masculinity is really about learning what it means to love unconditionally.
Erin
I'm Erin. I'm a spicy, white, butch lesbian living in Durham, North Carolina. I identify heavily with masculinity but not with any specific gender, which many folks don't understand initially. Gender feels contrived to me, and no one gender has ever felt like it's always fit. As a non-man who's masculine-of-center, masculinity to me feels like a way I relate to the world. It's an expression: how I dress and move and talk. It's an action: how I care for and protect others. I reject the notion that masculinity cannot be soft, compassionate and vulnerable. I think knowing how to be soft yet firmly boundaried can actually be a very masculine flex.
Anita Rao
This is Embodied. I'm Anita Rao.
I signed up for Women's Studies 101 on a whim, when I needed an extra elective to fill up my schedule during my first semester of college. Little did I know at the time that this one course would lead to seismic shifts in how I understood the world — and eventually in my understanding of myself. It's not that I hadn't thought about social history or equality before, it's more that I was encouraged for the first time to take a really deep look at my own beliefs about gender and consider the water I've been swimming in my whole life. Where did my definitions of femininity and masculinity come from? What messaging did I question, and what did I accept?
If it sounds like I was an existential teenager, you're right! As I started turning over these big questions 15 years ago, my impulse was to first look at my own family. We've had many big conversations about gender and power over the years because I'm not the only one with thoughts about this. Here's my younger brother, Nikilesh.
Nikilesh Rao
The parts about me that are most masculine are my ever-continuing development of my emotions as well as my caretaking instincts. In today's society, I feel that toxic culture teaches men that we need to be these hardened, GigaChad-type men who exert this hyper-masculine energy whether it's in the gym or with their relationships with women or their friends. In reality, I found that being more in touch with my emotions has felt far more masculine than that traditional toxic view the internet tells you about. I constantly look for ways to help out my loved ones in my life and something I take strong pride in for my masculinity.
Anita Rao
Nikilesh is one of many people interrogating the standards of masculinity they were raised with and redefining the concept on their own terms today. Both of my parents came from households that upheld pretty traditional gender norms, and our own upbringing was similar. My mom's personality is also that she's a caretaker to her core and always putting other people first. So it's interesting to hear how that has rubbed off on my brother, and informed how he thinks about masculinity. Someone else who also grew up in a pretty gendered household? Ocean Wei.
Ocean Wei
You know, from my early memories, what I learned about masculinity is mostly, like, what I've been warned against. Mostly, like, you shouldn't, like, climb rocks, play with mud or, like, act, quote unquote masculine.
Anita Rao
Ocean is a rising senior at Kenyon College in Ohio and a trans writer. He was born in Beijing. And as a teenager, he and his family made a big move from China to rural Missouri. And late in high school he came out as trans.
Ocean Wei
Like, it's — rural Missouri is a pretty religious community as well, so, gender was definitely more traditionally-defined. And, you know, it's, like, masculinity meant that, how — the man doing outdoor work, or drinking with other dads, or unfortunately most of the time acting homophobic. So, I don't know, I think at that point, since I was pretty young, like, my view of it, it's just, like, "Oh, this is how American men act," which is definitely a pretty narrowed viewpoint. But, yeah, since then, I feel like — unfortunately, because I was pretty dysphoric as a teen and was also just, like, assimilating culturally due to, like, you know, survival reasons — I definitely have internalized a lot of that. And when I started transitioning, I presented pretty, quote unquote, masculine. Partially for safety reasons and also partially because I was seeking a lot of validation.
Anita Rao
Tell me a little bit more about that. So you came out as trans in high school. And early in your transition you were noticing this very, kind of narrow view of the masculinity that you were feeling like you were going to perform, or you were encouraged to perform. What was that, specifically? What did that look like?
Ocean Wei
It's a lot of stereotypical stuff. I have tried to, like, walk in certain way, like, taking wider steps, not swing my hips as much, or performing in a certain manner, like, moving my arms slow. Even just keeping a straight face and, like, laughing less, which is really sad, thinking back. And just, like, and presentation wise, I brush my hair, I bought clothes from the boys section at Goodwill, I tried to speak from my chest, all that stuff.
Anita Rao
When you began making those shifts, did you notice that people were treating you in a particular way? And, I guess, what did that make you think about in terms of your own personal definition of masculinity?
Ocean Wei
A lot of what I noticed is just, like, misogyny that I have stopped receiving, like, or, that, like, I'm being catcalled less, or like, or — I dunno. It's — it's a tricky question to answer on that part, because I know, like, a lot of trans masculine persons actually, like, received the same harassment, and I don't want to minimize that. But my experience that I was, like, being affected a little less. And I was also noticing that racism was, like, manifesting differently to Asian woman, Asian men, obviously. So in terms of masculinity, at first, when I was presenting that way, I was feeling like it was pretty freeing. Because I feel like that's has been wrought for me my whole life. But in time, it feels a little — it began feeling weird. And it began feeling like I'm still performing a lot. And I know performing gender is not necessarily bad, but I was feeling odd because I thought I was supposed to feel natural and not feel like I'm performing something. But I definitely was because masculinity as a construction was not anything natural to me, or to most people.
Anita Rao
I love that point. That it kind of brought to the fore how much of — of all of gender is socially constructed, even if there was kind of some relief about feeling like externally, you were being seen the way you felt on the inside, it still is — is a creation in a lot of ways. Is there — you started taking testosterone I know as part of your transition. And testosterone is something that we get a lot of specific cultural messaging about when it comes to gender, whether that's, "Oh, there are links between testosterone and aggression," or "Testosterone is responsible for causing certain behaviors." Tell me more about some of those narratives that you began to think about in your own head when you started taking testosterone?
Ocean Wei
You know, I feel like this is something I've been thinking about a lot, because I feel like there's something very paradoxical that trans men face. Like, on one hand, we're supposed to meet this expectation of masculinity to get our gender validated. And — but at the same time, I feel like we're supposed to retain a sense of femininity. Or maybe that was not exactly accurate, but we're supposed to, like, not, quote unquote, become our enemy, like, the patriarchy. So the messaging that testosterone is associated with aggression is definitely, I feel, like, something I was afraid of, and a lot of my trans masc friends was afraid of, of like becoming this monster. Which is definitely a very transphobic and bio-essentialist message because that's saying, like, "Someone who is assigned male at birth is inherently less nurturing and just loving." And I feel like that's a very harmful message. But it was definitely something in my mind when I started testosterone. On the other hand, when I started T, I actually was super relieved because I was actually more comfortable presenting in a more traditionally feminine way. Like wearing skirts or more colorful clothings, because I feel like I'm able to present as my gender and being perceived as my gender more often. So I was more comfortable experimenting with different presentation.
Anita Rao
In the past decade or so since I left more formal environments for talking about gender like my Women's Studies classrooms, I've noticed that more and more people are talking about gender as a social construct, acknowledging that beliefs about masculinity are fluid and differ depending on our cultural context, ethnic, racial and religious backgrounds and geography. But when you try to really pin it down, it can be tough. Like, how do we actually define masculinity?
Anjan Alavandar
My understanding of gender sometimes can just feel like a big question. And, like, as soon as that I — I try to put, like, a microscope on it, it seems to just, like, evaporate. Which is kind of — when you said that "It's the water around us" when talking about gender, it's, like, often how I feel.
Anita Rao
That's Anjan Alavandar. They're the founder and a core team member of Masq, a discussion-based platform that aims to evolve and heal relationships with masculinity. Anjan started the community in the summer of 2019. They'd recently begun to identify as nonbinary and were thinking a lot about their own relationship with masculinity. They got together with a few friends in New York City, and organized a discussion group. Since then, Masq has hosted discussions in a number of cities on a range of topics, from men relearning love to exploring how masculinity shows up in our working lives. Anjan often plays the role of facilitator in those conversations, which is fitting because they've been examining and questioning masculinity themselves since they were very young.
Anjan Alavandar
I was lucky to have the inspiration of my own dad, for in terms of, like, what could be described as healthy masculinity. I think that he was he was always, like, very, like, playful and very compassionate growing up and always, like, soft with me. And I think that that was kind of a core — core thing that I tended to emulate growing up. I think that something that kind of really shaped my relationship with gender and masculinity growing up was kind of in that search of, like, "How do I like strive to be masculine," or, like, "How do I strive to be seen as like a boy?" I kind of was that — I kind of gave up on that kind of pretty early. Like, I remember initially — initially trying to do that, and then be — feeling like I wasn't ever really let in, and then just being, like, "You know what, like, I'm actually not super interested in that, because it's just, like, not super appealing to me." And being, like, "I'm just, I'm good. Like, I'm — I'm good where I am." And —
Anita Rao
Well, what did that mean for you in terms of your social life? Did it mean that you built more friendships with women? Did it mean that you, like, you know, you chose different activities where you were kind of forced less to fit into a specific gender box? What did it actually look like in the day to day?
Anjan Alavandar
Yeah, I mean, so I grew up in North Carolina, and I grew up going to a school system that was predominantly white. And in finding ways to try to relate with other boys, like, it felt like I wasn't being allowed in. And in some of the ways, like, to bond, like, they were pretty also, like, heteronormative and just, like, pretty, like, standard. And honestly as, like, a young brown person, particularly a young brown boy, it felt like masculinity was something that was, like, never actually achievable. But yeah, it just felt like there was not really ever a way for me to properly — [that] I would ever fully be a, quote unquote, man. And it looked often like me being, like, the, like, butt of jokes. Kind of hard to point to — to, like, specific examples without it turning into, like, a therapy session. It just — it just was, like, a vibe around there. Like, in masc spaces I was the, like, the weaker person. And I found myself, like, gravitating towards women, gravitating towards girls, when I was younger and, like — and it's kind of interesting because it's, like, part of what allowed me to have those friendships was that same, like, de-masculinized, brown boy energy. It's like I wasn't seen as, like, someone that was, like, could be, like dating material or whatever. I was seen as a friend. And that was, like, I honestly just hold that and held that as, like, a privilege or an honor in some ways. Because in a lot of ways where I was allowed to be in situations that another boy might not have been allowed to, you know, like, at an all girls slumber party.
Anita Rao
So you, I mean, you had access to spaces from a young age where there were a variety of gender identities and expressions. And, you know, as you went through your life — I know in your early 20s, you started to question your own gender identity and had this real, kind of renegotiation with masculinity again. Now that you are in this space where you are actively gathering folks in conversation about gender identity, what do you notice about your own personal philosophy about what masculinity is as someone who has been questioning it for so long, and someone who's been in spaces where you have access to a variety of people and how they think about it for so long?
Anjan Alavandar
For me personally, like, masculinity is how I play with my own, like, expression of self and expression of personalities. And I also think about masculinity, in terms of, like, how I relate with other people, like, very, very often. And particularly with friendships. In Masq, something we talk about often is building relationships with other folks, and how expressions of masculinity have gotten in the way of our community-building, our friendship-building. And I've noticed, particularly with my masculine friendships — friendships with men — there's, like, a lot — there's this feeling of, like, almost, like, fear of change, or, like, fear of, like, disrupting the status quo. And, like, fear of, like, not being chill that kind of keeps us from, like, pushing, or has kept us from, like, pushing against the grain or, like, pursuing a different way of being that might feel better to us as we grow. I think a fear of mine is, like, "Okay, if I'm going to try to be a different way with my friend, ask him this question of maybe how he's doing or how he's feeling emotionally, that feels different from how our friendship has been in the past, like, that might draw my masculinity into question." And I've noticed in doing that question and being in those situations that, like, I actually don't feel any less of a masculine person in those situations. There is that change, and there is a shift, but we're both there afterwards. And we both actually find something rewarding in it, in that discomfort. And I still hold those masculine friendships, and they feel deeper because of it. And that in it's own way, it's kind of like revalidated this new and, like, forming definition with masculinity for myself.
Anita Rao
As I was getting ready for my conversation with Anjan and Ocean, I was thinking a lot about the accessible spaces where conversations about masculinity are happening and who is having them. We'll talk a bit about the dark side of the internet, where there's conversation occurs in a little bit. But this research led me to a really well-done episode of the NPR show "Life Kit." I'm going to link it in the show notes of this episode, but it offers some really accessible frames for defining masculinity on your own terms and thinking about how aligned your personal values are with your own thinking about masculinity. Is policing your own gender identity getting in the way of you being more vulnerable or expressing an emotion like fear or sadness? Have you thought about how that shapes your relationships? Ocean has worked through a lot of these questions, and it's led him to forming some really beautiful close relationships with other masculine folks in his life.
Ocean Wei
My best friend is a trans masc person who — we say love you to each other, text heart emojis, hug. When we ask, like, how are you to each other, we give, like, long and genuine answers and we ask if, like, we want to go on walks, or cook together, or stargaze. For us, it has definitely be, like, both a learning and unlearning process because we both went through, like, learning how to be masculine in a more traditional sense and then unlearning that as we feel more comfortable and safer in our community and more confident in our genders. So, I mean, for a lot of people it's hard to open up. It's a lot of years conditioning. But I think we both model through our own openness. And hopefully, it will help people who are not as far along [in their] journey to being comfortable and being intimate in friendships.
Anita Rao
I love that. And it demonstrates how it is, like, these concepts are something that we create in relationship with one another. And that brings me to something you were talking about Anjan, and that you talk about a lot on Masq, which is how in Masq spaces you can call other people in as opposed to calling them out. I'd love to hear about any examples that you have of calling someone in.
Anjan Alavandar
So calling in is this idea where you bring someone to the table, to engage in a conversation with them that might include ways in which their behavior or a way in which they've been has been harmful to others. As opposed to like calling them out, which would just kind of be, like, exposing their harmful behavior and, like, calling attention to that for, like, some form of retribution. There's just a lot of stigma around these conversations in general. A lot of people fear that by just being involved in the conversation around masculinity, they're going to inherently be called out for ways in which they've been harmful. And I think that the accountability, and speaking to the harm that we've been a part of, and have helped enable through toxic expressions of masculinity — I think that's an important part, but it's not all of what we do.
And it can be, like, really radical to show folks that conflict can exist. Like, there's been moments in conversations at Masq, several moments, or when you get a lot of masculine folks in the room — especially when there's a lot of men in the room — there's gonna be a lot of people taking up a lot of space. And a core role we have is, like, being conscious of the space we have, and making sure that, you know, all people have the opportunity to take up space. So there's plenty of moments in those conversations where I have to call folks in. I say, like, "Hey, like, I appreciate you for your sharing. And also, like, let's make room for other people in this moment." And I think that, like, those moments of conflict have been some of the more healing moments in those conversations. Because that moment itself can feel very tense. And they can feel, like, a lot of discomfort arise in that confrontation. And also, like, as the conversation continues, and the circle comes back to them, like, it can be, like, okay, like harm can be done or, like, too much space can be taken. And we can move forward from that, right? Like, we don't have to dwell on something once it's been addressed.
Anita Rao
Yeah, I think you're bringing up this really good point around performance and this binary that shows up. I've been thinking a lot about internet culture. My brother at the very beginning of the show mentioned GigaChad, which is something I was not familiar with before this show. And if you're not, it's this meme of this hyper-masculine guy. And I've been thinking about how so much of the conversation about masculinity, when we use terms like toxic masculinity, becomes about what you aren't. Like, I am not a toxic person because I don't do XYZ. But it doesn't give you a lot of opportunities to talk about what you are and what you do want a version of masculinity to be. And I'd love to end by asking you both to talk a little bit about kind of where you hope these conversations go. We mentioned kind of the toxic places where masculinity is being performed on the internet. But I think that there are spaces where there are healthy conversations happening. Obviously Anjan, you're creating the space in real life with Masq, but I'd love to ask both of you that. I mean, where do you hope to see this conversation about expanding masculinity go? Maybe just even, like, in the next couple of years, what would be a dream situation? Ocean, I'll let you start.
Ocean Wei
I feel like there isn't really an endpoint for me. Just, like, I feel like gender evolution doesn't really have an endpoint. I mean, nowadays, we all talk about gender as social construct. And naturally, some people are just, like, "Why do we keep using those labels? Like, why don't we just like stop saying masculinity and femininity or even like being gender neutral?" And personally, I just feel like removing those words and, like, removing their histories and the meaning that they have changed throughout the years are kind of counterintuitive. Like, we all know that the color pink or, like, high heels have been made for men at some point. And for me, it's really important to remember the histories and how gender stereotypes and expectations have harmed us. I feel, like, only through, like, keeping those words we can have those conversations and reflect on our own internalization and how our behaviors are shaped those.
Anita Rao
I love that. Anjan, how about you?
Anjan Alavandar
Yeah, I mean, for me, it's something that I feel like I've seen time and time again, in spaces with Masq, has been, like, how rich the conversation can be when you have folks who have different histories and different expressions of masculinity in the room together talking about masculinity. I think that a lot of trans folks, and a lot of gender neutral folks, and a lot of even cis folks have a lot that they can learn from one another in terms of their histories and expressions with masculinity. I also think that there's, like, a lot that we can align about and find in commonality and shared experience with, and, like, not being so afraid to as well. I think conversations around gender and masculinity — I think a lot of them have happened historically, like, in, like, academia and spaces like that. And I think that part of that has led to, like, people feeling, like, there's, like, a set — set of language that they need to have or, like, feeling inadequate to do that. And I think in Masq something that we constantly trying to do is just encourage people to speak from their lived experience and from what they know. And also, like, being okay with people making mistakes. I think we can try to, like, create safe spaces, but in reality, like, mistakes and conflict are natural and also create intimacy. And being able to make a mistake and learn from that mistake and be like showed what was wrong in real time can be, like, a really powerful and healing experience for, like, a lot of folks involved.
Anita Rao
Embodied it's a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast, consider a contribution at wunc.org now. Storytelling like you hear on Embodied is only possible because of listeners like you.
This episode was produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. Paige Perez also produces for our show, Skylar Chadwick is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Sean Roux also helped with the show. Quilla wrote our theme music.
Special thanks to all the people who contributed to this episode, including Nikilesh, Charlie, Donat and Erin.
Thank you so much for listening to Embodied and if you like the show, the best way to support us is to share about it in your personal networks. Word of mouth recommendations are the best way to support our podcast and we so appreciate your support.
Until next time, I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.