Anita Rao 0:01
There is not much that I don't talk to my parents about, at least when the microphones are rolling. In the past three years since I started embodied, we've discussed abortion, poop, body hair, and porn. But a few weeks ago, when I was recording our episode Mixed, which was all about biracial identity, I had a surprising revelation. Despite my parents being the precise reason why I am mixed race, I've never really talked with them about my experience as a mixed Indian and White person, and all the ways it shapes my relationships and outlook. So, in the true Embodied fashion, I invited them in for a conversation.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 0:43
I never saw, you know, I never looked at you in the lens of — of your racial identity. I looked at you as a — just a perfect, beautiful, my child. Someone who I'm so proud of. And then you having this show gave me a lens, like a window into a world that I didn't know about.
Anita Rao 1:02
That's my mom, Sheila. She and my dad Satish, like the supportive parents they are, listened to the episode about mixed race identity. And it led both of them to really stop and reflect.
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 1:14
It kind of brought, to my knowledge anyway, certain things that I never thought about. [Such] as when we fell in love, and we got married. And moving on, we never thought about, well, what would our children be like and so on. I don't think that ever entered.
Anita Rao 1:34
Some context before we get more deeply into the conversation. My parents met in England and got married in 1984. They actually have two wedding anniversaries because they had two weddings. A Catholic one one day, and a Hindu one the next. I was born four and a half years later, in December 1988. When I was three years old, our family immigrated to the US. And at that time, the number of interracial couples living in this country was steadily increasing. The Census Bureau reported that between 1960 and 1990, the number of interracial couples grew by seven and a half percent each year. Subsequently, the number of multiracial children grew as well. But despite these upward trends that would only continue over the next decades, my parents came from environments in which interracial marriage was not only very rare, but also not well accepted by some of their loved ones. In Seaham, the small coal mining town in England where my mom grew up, their mixed-race, mixed-religion marriage made the front page of the paper. And that really impacted how they raised us as biracial kids.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 2:45
So if you look back on how dad and I got married, you know, there was some people who didn't support us and didn't approve of us and said, "Oh, you know, you're gonna have a difficult life, things will be hard for you, it'll be hard for you to raise children, this will be extremely challenging as a mixed race couple." So, having that as your lens for starting your life, you then think, "No, I'm going to prove you wrong, that love really can overcome a lot of obstacles." So, we consciously really put in a lot of effort and said, "You know, we will do everything we can to make our relationship work." Not to prove to people — because we knew in our heart that it was going to be fine.
Anita Rao 3:24
Yeah.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 3:24
And so when you were born, I, you know, maybe it looks naive now, when you are giving me light in from a new window, that — that was not in the picture. You were just a perfect human that we created. And we, between us, don't feel any difference.
Anita Rao 3:40
So you don't — you never had conversations before you had kids about, like, "Okay, we are having mixed race kids, what is their experience gonna be like in the world?" Like, you all didn't, that wasn't something you talked about.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 3:52
We didn't have language for that.
Anita Rao 3:54
Yeah.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 3:54
No, we didn't.
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 3:55
The one area where we did have perhaps some conversation was really about religion. And Mom is Catholic, I'm a Hindu. And — and so right at the beginning, we — we did talk about that. And then our feeling was we would raise them with experiences of both religions. And then we would let the children choose which path they want to pursue, either one or both, or none. I mean, that's a part that's their choices, but at least we thought we should really give them that background and that culture. So, the — only the religious part is where we had any conversation, if any, but certainly nothing about the racial part of it, which we never really thought about as as an issue.
Anita Rao 4:43
So when you came to the US, I was three, Priyanka was like five and a half. Now you are immigrants in this new place, and you're raising these kids who have many cultures that they're experiencing. Were there moments when we were growing up where you felt like there were things that we were experiencing that felt really foreign to you as a parent, from a racial perspective? Obviously, there were a lot of cultural things that we were experiencing that you all hadn't. But were there any things about our mixed race identities that you all felt aware of?
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 5:20
Nothing that comes to mind as a specific issue. But you know, we were raising you in a town, which was really, very liberal, and very, very welcoming. And I think we always, always had very rose colored glasses, and were always pragmatic. And we wanted you to be very accepting of everything and everyone and, you know, that is — and now you are going forward and making new barriers in areas that we don't know about. Now, we are learning from you. So I think we did a good job, because we didn't put you in into any kind of a box and say, "This, it has to be like this." We just tried to be very open, because that was very critical for us to feel comfortable. That we expose you to everything. Was it hard work? It really was. And yeah, there would have been moments of like, "Wow, this is hard." Sometimes once in a blue moon, maybe at the temple, there were lots of prayers that I didn't know. I might think, "Oh, wow, if I known these, it would have been easier for me." But that would be a momentary wish, then I would be fine. So, it's just my nature to be very accommodating, and to get along.
Anita Rao 6:28
How about you, Dad?
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 6:29
I think Iowa was a very special place. And we never ever felt racially alienated or being non exclusive in any part of the town or the city, or even amongst friends, and even in my professional life. I never felt that as a barrier. And I think, you know, that experience for 20 years living in that city, and that college town may have colored some of our perspectives. Moving to Georgia, it's perhaps been a little different. I think I do feel there is a undercurrent of racial feelings in this city, and in the state, which certainly we never experienced in Iowa. Not personally, but I can see it, certainly voiced by a number of my peers, and so on. I've, in my role, whether with peers, with patients, with my students, and so on, never really felt that in any way. But I've known of experiences and so on. So, there is a little undercurrent which I experienced in Georgia, but not in Iowa.
Anita Rao 6:29
So when you all were listening to this, I asked you to think about any questions that you had for me or anything that stood out to you in listening that you wanted to know more about. So, I'd love to give you an opportunity to ask me any questions that you have from the episode.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 7:58
Certainly, so given the pretext of what I had said, how we went into this with wanting to be open wanting to be equal,
Anita Rao 8:05
Okay.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 8:05
I have two questions for you. So, knowing how we were approaching the whole raising you, what would you have had us do differently now that we can look back? My second question to you will be — and you talked about this in the show — that you are now going to get married to John, a white person. And you know contemplate a lot about your racial identity and being mixed race and wanting to have more mixed race friendship. What will you do in your relationship in getting married and your life moving forward?
Anita Rao 8:36
Both good questions. I think, as you said, like, the environment and community that we grew up in, I feel like you all really set us up for success in that we were really exposed to both worlds. Like, there was a very active, involved Indian community, and I felt very much a part of that. I had really strong friendships with — with other young Indian kids. I felt very integrated into that community. I felt fully aware of Indian culture, Hindu culture. And I know I often talked with Erica, my — one of my best Indian friends who I grew up with, and she would say, like, "I feel like you like you almost grew up more Indian than I did, in some ways, like in the ways that you — you were taught more about, you know, religious history or cultural history." And on the other side, like, we were also very involved in the Catholic Church, and we went to England a lot.
So I felt like, I think you all did an incredible job really exposing us to both cultures. And I think that is rare. And I'm so grateful because I feel like I really grew up with a full sense of both of my identities. I think the part that felt so hard for me that I talked about in the show was, I feel like as a kid, there were a few moments that we had, like, when we would go to India. I would be very aware of how I was being perceived because we would stand out so much in Hyderabad. You know, you're obviously like the only white person around oftentimes, like, we're the only people that look a little bit different, I feel like people would look at us. And it's partially maybe because you're tourists, but also because you look different. And I feel like there were those little moments as a kid, that then those moments got magnified for me when I went away on my own, but I didn't have the language for them of, like, "How is the way other people are perceiving me different than I perceive myself?" And I think that's been the biggest, like, thing that I have struggled to make sense of. It's like, "Oh, I don't feel this way on the inside, but this is how other people are perceiving me, and how do I bridge that gap?" So, maybe having opportunities to talk about that, in those moments when we were all experiencing it together, like, okay, we're all in India, like, we're all — and I feel like we would notice it. You know we'd go on the rickshaw drive together and just be, like, you, me, and Priyanka. And it's like, everyone is staring at us, like, it's very obvious that we are different, but we never really talked about that, or how that felt, or what we were thinking. So, I think in those moments, like, those stick out to me. I mean, I'm a very perceptive person. I was as a kid. I don't know whether those stuck out to Priyanka in the same way, but, like, those memories in my head, that I —I think it could have been helpful to, like, begin to make sense of those so that it wasn't as jarring for me when I experienced that on my own for the first time. That's, I guess what I would say is, like, beginning — and I don't know, you say you didn't really have the language. So, maybe that's, like, we could have discovered it together or had opportunities to do it together and start having those conversations or look for models of those conversations by, you know, building really — I mean, we were really the only like, inter — I guess, as we got older, there were other like mixed Indian and white families. But when I was younger, we were kind of the only one. So it's not like we had a lot of opportunities to talk and connect with other people. But maybe as we got older, having those opportunities.
With my life and partnership moving forward, I mean, I think that's why for me, like, living near Priyanka, and Amit feels so important because I feel like I have a lot of access to Indian culture and experiences in a way that feels very effortless when I'm around them. Because, like, you all around more often, Amit's parents are around, Amit has strong connections with the Indian community in Fayetteville. I think that that — living close to her feels really important to me for that reason, because it feels like I don't have to put in a lot of effort. So I think ways to be supportive to me would be, like, finding ways to help me, like, engage and connect with the Indian community, if I'm in situations where I feel like that isn't coming naturally, or I'm struggling to make those relationships or build those bridges. Because there is an element of like, going out on my own into those spaces without some other kind of like, gateway or connection that feels overwhelming.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 12:50
Very cool. You know, we're all learning, right? I mean, as I said, you opened a window to something, it's like, "Oh, Anita has woken us up." You know, Dad and I talked about this the whole journey here yesterday.
Anita Rao 13:03
[Laughs]
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 13:04
And I think you are — you are a catalyst, that is your talent.
Anita Rao 13:07
Yeah.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 13:07
You're a catalyst for many new conversations in our experiences. Because we're creatures of habit, you know. And I'm coming from a culture, you know, which we don't talk and analyze everything all the time, whereas you do. And you — you talk a lot and talk and talk and think and talk. And I think I'm a slightly bit less analytical, but we both have the same — I mean, we both have the same thought waves and we really, I think, are similar in so many ways, but I'm just a little bit less analytical than you are.
Anita Rao 13:40
I think that's good, though.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 13:41
Right?
Anita Rao 13:41
Yeah.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 13:42
But now we have a language and you can have me in that society. I'll join.
Anita Rao 13:46
Okay. Dad, what questions do you have?
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 13:53
I think, you know, one of the stories that always comes back to me was, you remember we had a lovely family, a patient family, who befriended us. And then they adored all of you over the years, and they came visited us all the way from Florida. And one of the things that Sheila always said, not wife Sheila here, my patient, Sheila. She said — you know, she comes from a large family — "I've met a lot of people over the years. But the way you both have really interacted with your children raised them is a model." And she always said, "I really want you and Sheila to please write a book about how you raised your children because this is —
Anita Rao 14:04
[Laughs] I did not know this.
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 14:43
— something unique." Oh, yes. She said that at least 50 times. Anyway, so I think we should probably think about that one day.
Anita Rao 14:53
[Laughs]
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 14:53
But - but my question to you, I think, along the theme you've just alluded to was, what are the strengths and weaknesses that you have perceived, or felt — I know you mentioned a little bit of it in the previous conversation — but what are the strengths and weaknesses that you have perceived, or felt, as you were growing up in a mixed race family?
Anita Rao 15:16
Like the strengths and weaknesses of, like, how it feels? What do you mean?
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 15:21
Now that you're reflecting a little bit, so, what do you think were the strengths of actually being born and raised
Anita Rao 15:28
Ah, I see, I see, I see.
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 15:28
in a mixed race family,
Anita Rao 15:30
Okay.
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 15:30
and what do you felt some of the weaknesses or challenges?
Anita Rao 15:33
Okay, yeah, I think there are a ton of strengths in that I — I mean, I really attribute, like, so much of my professional and intellectual curiosity to growing up in a mixed race environment, because I think you have to do a lot of — you're like always living in multiple worlds at the same time. And I think, a function of both being mixed race, and you all being immigrants, and us being in the Midwest, like, there are so many dual worlds that we were always living in, or operating in, in our family. And I think that constantly moving back and forth between those worlds or thinking about them gave me a lot of experience, like, getting curious about how my experience was different from someone else's, really wanting to understand how other people live and how that was different from my own experience. So, I feel like it really gave me a really strong sense of curiosity, and a really healthy curiosity about how my experience is different from other peoples'. And I think that that curiosity leads to a level of openness that I think is really important. So, I think that that's one of the huge strengths.
Weaknesses? I don't know about weaknesses, other than I do think that the questions of, like, belonging, — like to feel like you fully, — that I probably have more opportunities of, like, wondering if I belong somewhere than people that are monoracial. In that, like, they can, you know, go into a cultural space and not feel at all like anyone is, you know, looking at them or perceiving them in a different way. And that, like, sense of awareness is always going to be something that I feel that maybe gives me a heightened sense of, like, impostor syndrome at times, like, "Do I belong? I don't know if I belong." So I think that, like, I guess that's more of like a psychological thing of, like, questioning belonging, or trying to navigate belonging and making sense of that. I mean, it probably gives me some other strengths on the other side of it, but from, like, on a day to day basis, that feels like one of the challenges.
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 17:43
Okay, yeah, so along the same things, what I - what my second question that I had for you was, you know, mom, and I obviously belong to different races, but we have had a 40 plus year relationship. And we never felt race was a factor in anything within — in our lives and in our careers as we adopted different countries, as we moved to a more various places, and we raised all three of you. So for you, as a mixed race child, what challenges, if any, you have faced in your career, in your personal life, and in any relationships that you've had? So that a discussion about that could be useful for other mixed race children in terms of how they would want to navigate their lives.
Anita Rao 18:44
I think it's really different for different mixed race people based on how you physically present I think. Because, like, as I've said, some people are aware of my racial background from looking at me, other people aren't. And I think that gives me a lot of privilege in that, like, I don't face discrimination in a lot of spaces, because people don't perceive me as a person of color. Yeah, I think I inherit a lot of privilege because of how I appear. And so I think for people that are mixed race that phenotypically look different, I think it can be much more challenging. And then, you know, in the workplace or in whatever space, they're going to experience whatever kind of racism or colorism is present in anywhere, everywhere. I think in my relationships, I mean, it's kind of the same. I mean, I feel like I — I think all of the like negative things that I've experienced have been much more internal. I don't feel like in the external world, I'm being treated a particular way that makes me feel different. It's like kind of in my head, or in my own psyche a lot of the times. So, I don't feel like I have a lot of advice in that realm because I feel like I come — I have a lot of privilege based on what I look like. And it hasn't affected me as much in my romantic relationships. Yeah. Does that answer your question?
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 20:11
Yeah, I think you did. I think you did. I mean, I think one thing, at least we felt even as we were discussing about this in our five hour journey here, five plus hour journey [laughs] was, I think love is something that transcends everything. It transcends race, it transcends any physical distinctions, It transcends geographical barriers, and any kind of physical barriers. So, when we do come across some issues, I always go back to the same question that, "Oh, is there something missing in some people's lives, or in their upbringing or in their relationships?" And this missing piece then negatively influences everything and colors how they perceive everything, and how they interact with people. But when you have universal love, and unconditional love, then that will transcend all of these barriers. And that's what I think we've had and that's what we felt.
Anita Rao 21:21
Well, thank you so much for having this conversation. This feels like the beginning of — yeah. There's much more to discuss. And I'd love to open it up to you.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 21:31
Right, can we just finish with that one thing, which was you make sense because you are.
Anita Rao 21:36
Yeah, I love that.
Sheila Rao (Anita's Mom) 21:36
I liked that, you know, because every child makes sense in their environment, because they are. And of course that's an idealistic perfect world, but you make sense because you are and you're wonderful and good luck.
Anita Rao 21:49
[Laughs] Thanks Mom.
Dr. Satish Rao (Anita's dad) 21:51
Thank you Anita. Thank you.
Anita Rao 22:00
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to support Embodied consider a contribution at wunc.org now. Storytelling like you hear on Embodied is only possible because of listeners like you. This episode is produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. Paige Perez also produces for our show, Skylar Chadwick is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Quilla wrote our theme music. And if you liked this conversation, check out the episode that inspired it. It's called "Mixed: Owning Your Multiracial Story." I talked with two amazingly insightful college students about sibling relationships and dating life. And I also got some advice from a life coach who's really changed a lot of mixed folks' lives. That episode is available wherever you get your podcasts. If you have a story to share with us, a topic you want to hear my parents talk about, or ideas about an episode you want us to cover in general, leave us a message on our virtual mailbox, SpeakPipe. Find the link in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening to Embodied and if you're new here, welcome. We are so happy to have you. We'd love to hear from you and hear about how you found our show. Send us a message at embodied@wunc.org. And if you want to support this show, word of mouth recommendations are the best way to do it. We so appreciate your support. Until next time, I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.