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Mixed: Podcast Transcript

Anita Rao
As a kid, the way I thought about my racial identity was uncomplicated. I'd look in the mirror and picture myself as exactly half and half. The right side of my body: Indian and brown. The left side: British and white. I grew up in a small city in the Midwest, and my family was active in our community. So I never felt like I had to explain my racial or ethnic identity to anyone. People just knew.

Fast forward to 2007. I graduated from high school in the same small city and moved almost one thousand miles away to go to college. And in the months that followed, I had almost daily experiences in which I felt super aware of a dissonance between how I felt on the inside and how other folks perceived me.

While some people knew immediately that I was mixed or had Indian heritage, others thought I was white. And the more new encounters I had, the more confused I became. Should I have a short phrase I use to explain myself? Do I just assume that if it's an encounter that matters, identity will naturally come up? Looking back, I can see that the questions that emerged for me as an 18-year-old signified a shift into mixed race adulthood.

This is Embodied. I'm Anita Rao.

Gabrielle
My dad is Black and my mother is white. But if you were just a person passing me on the street, you would not think that I was biracial. When I tell people I'm biracial, or when people find out, there's like this snap response where people will be like, "No, you're not." Like, "Yes, I am. I'm biracial. My dad is Black, my mom is white." "No, you're not." I get that so often and I don't know why. I'm really proud of my identity. I'm proud of who I am.

Sarah R.
I think when I was a kid I cared a lot about being understood. You know, people just see me and see my face, and don't see a picture of my family, and don't know about my family history. And I feel like one of the things that I've gotten better at is kind of understanding what people are asking and why they're asking. And just giving the information that people are looking for, as opposed to, like, the whole version of the whole story.

Anonymous Listener
So I was about either 19 or 20. And I had my first relationship at the time. And I remember I was set to meet her mother. We got to the dinner that night and during the entire dinner her mother didn't acknowledge me. She wouldn't look me in the eyes. Although I felt like my entire life I have been racialized as something other than white, this was my first time really experiencing anti-Blackness. I think that was a wake up call for me. Sometimes, you know, having lighter skin has, I would say, advantages. But that was the first time really in my young, developing ages that it really felt real in that type of way.

Anita Rao
More than 30 million Americans identify as being of two or more races. And that number is on the rise. But what it means to be a mixed person is highly specific to the individual. I know for my own 30-some years on this earth that the experience is ever-shifting. And some of the first big changes are brought on by the simple act of getting older.

Adiah Siler
I think when I was growing up, there was definitely less of a conversation around being mixed. Like, I definitely was cognizant of the fact that I was mixed. But it was never something that really was, like, cast into sharp focus for me until I got to school. And I felt like I needed to be, like, categorized to a degree by my peers in order to fit in.

Anita Rao
That's Adiah Siler. She's 21 and a rising senior at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia. Her dad is Black and her mom is white. She grew up in a Pennsylvania suburb and has some distinct childhood memories of noting racial dissonance. Like when she was little, and her mom was struggling to figure out how to do her hair. Or when she got together with her dad's side of the family at big gatherings and didn't quite feel like she belonged. As she transitioned to college, she started to reflect more on how all those small moments of her childhood fit together.

Adiah Siler
I go to school in Philadelphia, so it's obviously, like, a very, very Black city. There are a lot of ways in which I've been given more opportunities to explore my Blackness and my relationship to my Blackness within, like, a new context. At my, like, my original high school or when I was coming up through elementary school, at the very white institutions that I was attending, I didn't feel safe enough to explore those parts of me without, like, criticism. So, I would kind of let myself be, like, the butt of jokes or let myself be, like, the only Black person in a given situation. And now I feel like there is so much Blackness around that I have, like, the option to kind of explore in ways that I wasn't afforded when I was living in my, like, small town growing up.

Anita Rao
Another person in the midst of that transition to adulthood is Claire Gallagher. She grew up in L.A. as a mixed Chinese and white person. Although the city itself is racially diverse, her private high school wasn't. And she too experienced being the butt of some racist jokes.

Claire Gallagher
People would make jokes about, like, me being, like, a bad driver. Or, like, having small eyes, stuff like that. But I think people were really interested in being politically correct. So I think that directing those jokes at me felt more comfortable to people, like, almost like it was, like, more acceptable, because I also am white. And that, like, proximity, I think, made the jokes feel like they, like, weren't offensive.

Anita Rao
Claire, like me, moved really far away to go to college. And that shift from L.A. to Ann Arbor, Michigan was a culture shock. But it wasn't all bad.

Claire Gallagher
Having to kind of feel like you need to, like, re-explain yourself to a new community of people can be daunting. But I never felt like the friends I made, like, saw me in any sort of, like, different way. I've always felt really, like, understood and welcomed by the friends that I made. I mean, I started writing for Michigan In Color. And that was definitely a really good community for me to join and helps me work through a lot of, like, any impostor syndrome feelings that I was having.

Anita Rao
So, I didn't really know any mixed folks who were my age until I went to college. And I know how important those friendships were for me in the process of kind of naming the challenges I faced as a mixed race adult. Claire, the person who was your roommate your first year in college, who is still a close friend, is also Asian and white. And I'm curious about how being in such close proximity to her and how that friendship shaped how you think about your own identity.

Claire Gallagher
Yeah, so, I was really lucky with my freshman year roommate situation. We just, like, met each other on Facebook. And I definitely think that recognizing that she was also half Asian, half white was part of the reason why I wanted to reach out to her in the first place. Because growing up, I didn't really have any other mixed race friends but, like, we ended up just clicking immediately. And she's still one of my best friends. And I think having her as kind of the first friend I made at school was really important for me in terms of feeling like I belonged there, and, like, helping me make other friends too, I think. For a lot of mixed kids, sometimes it's good to have siblings who really understand the exact situation that you're in. But having a friend that has similar experiences is also — has been really important. And I'm really lucky to have her.

Anita Rao
You do have a sister. I'm curious about that relationship and the conversations that you all had growing up about racial identity and physical appearance. Because often siblings don't necessarily present exactly the same way. I know that's true for me and my siblings. I'm curious about your experience.

Claire Gallagher
Yeah, we don't really talk to our dad's side of the family, and it was kind of something that we would almost use against each other growing up. I think people have always said that she looks a lot more like our mom. And people would tell us that she looks more Chinese and that I look whiter. And we would, like, in a snarky way, like, tell each other, like, "You're being so white right now." Or, like, "You're Chinese, like, your accent's so bad. Your accent's so white." Saying those things to each other to hurt each other. Because we really wanted to be like our mom. So that was, like, obviously bad in our relationship growing up. But now I mean, we've, like, matured and moved past that and we've, you know, had conversations about how it feels. But I think I always kind of, like, a little bit resented her for looking more Chinese in a lot of family situations growing up. Like, if we'd be with our family eating at a restaurant and the waiter would speak to everyone in Chinese and then speak to me in English, I felt really hurt. And I felt like "Okay, like, am I not seen as being part of my family?" So I think I resented her for that for, like, a long time. But you know, obviously it's, like, siblings are really important in, like, support systems. So obviously I'm trying to not still feel that way.

Anita Rao
I'm curious, Adiah, what your experience has been. I know you have two younger brothers. Maybe doesn't have as much of that sister dynamic but, um, what have you learned about how y'all's different appearances have shaped your mixed experiences?

Adiah Siler
Yeah, I definitely felt throughout my life that we all were treated or perceived slightly differently, we all present differently. One of my brothers, I call, like, my big-little brother, because he's, like, 6'4" and he's, like, only two years younger than me. So he is a, like, a little bit darker than me. But his hair was always, like, not as, like, kinky as mine was. And my littlest brother is, like, very light-skinned has very, like, almost, like, a traditionally, like, biracial sort of mixed race look. And that his hair is, like, very light and wavy. Even though there's no, like, traditional sort of way to be mixed, I find that it's really interesting to see how we all try to fit in with either sides of our — of our family. It's, like, a classic sort of thing, like, being too much of one thing to fit into either side. But I definitely find that with my family, me and my brother who's close to my age, often identify with each other, like, very quickly. Like, we have, like, a very, like, unique sort of experience from either side of our families. So there's, like, a sense of shame that comes when we see our Black family. Of feeling like our proximity to whiteness makes us not as in tune with them. And then there's, like, a sort of annoyed sort of understanding that we have when we're with our white side of the family of like, "Okay, they're going to micro-aggress without realizing, and we have to kind of keep it pushing." I find that, like, that in-betweenness that we both sort of harbor makes our relationship really, really interesting. And really unique in that way.

Anita Rao
As y'all are talking about this, I'm thinking that I really haven't talked with my parents much about my reflections on feeling different from my siblings. I'm curious about if you all have? Adiah, I'll start with you. Like, is this something that you talk to your parents about? Or does it really stay among siblings?

Adiah Siler
I talked to my parents about it a bit. But I always feel as though their own relationships with their race are so different than mine, that I do find it difficult to, like, fully get them to understand. And to a degree, like, I completely get it. Like, my father is a dark-skinned Black man, and my mom is white. So I feel like it's hard for either of them to fully get it. And I don't pass judgment on either of them for that, because I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, they're completely different identities. But I do think that it's something that I don't know if they thought too much about it before they had us. So I've tried to talk to them about it. But I find that maybe it's because of how they grew up or when they had us, like, early 2000s, that they find it, I think, more effective to talk about race, but talk, like, a little bit less about, like, what it means to be a mixed, like, interracial family, I guess.

Anita Rao
That totally makes sense. And Claire, I know you mentioned not growing up with both parents. But did you and your sister talk to your mom about these feelings of wanting to be perceived as Chinese? Or any of those microaggressions you were experiencing at school of people, you know, using your proximity to whiteness as a way to stereotype you?

Claire Gallagher
Yeah, I feel like I really agree with what Adiah was saying about, like, I don't really think it was something that my parents thought about when they had me and my sister. I really haven't had that many conversations about being mixed with my mom. But it's kind of interesting, because I think that me and my roommate, who I talked about, have had a lot of conversations about our anxiety about having kids.

Anita Rao
Yeah, talk to me more than that.

Claire Gallagher
Like, we have, like, a lot of anxieties around, like, who we have kids with, and then what our kids would look like, and what that means for how we go about different cultural practices. I mean, my mom makes a lot of jokes about, like, if me and my sister have kids with a white guy that everyone will think she's, like, the nanny and the no one will think she's related to us.

Anita Rao
No, that is so, so real. My sister met her husband when she was in college and he is Indian American, and they have kids who definitely look Indian. And I'm in a partnership with a white person and I feel so much longing for what I know that her kids will experience that my kids wouldn't. Of just not being perceived as Indian in a certain way or being perceived as very white and that that grief is very real and very confusing. Adiah, I'm curious about how you're thinking about that, and does that shape how you date and who you date at all?

Adiah Siler
Absolutely. I feel, like, very, like, seen by like what you said Claire. That I feel like I do have, like, a lot of anxiety around it. And it does shape the way in which that I go about dating. For me, I know a big part of my Black identity comes from having my Black family. Like, I have my dad and I have my brothers. And my home base feels, like, Black. So even if I'm at a PWI, even if the friends that I'm making lean white, or my partner is white, I know that my family and, like — like, my core, like, at my core, I have that connection. So I think when you are dating white people, there is, like, this fear that if you are going to create this new sense of a family, that there is like going to be that missing. That has always been, like, a big anxiety of mine and something that I'm, like, very curious about. I am dating somebody that's white right now. And I find that that's a big discussion with us. Like, we talk a lot about what it means. Like, we're also — I'm also in, like, a queer relationship. So that's, like, an interesting dynamic, when it comes to, like, if we do have kids, like, how will we, you know what I mean? Like, how do you go about that? Like, do you adopt? I'm, like, very against, like, adopting outside of, like, a race that either of us identify with. So, it's, like, a very interesting sort of conversation around, like, who do you end up with, and how do you center your Blackness while also honoring, like, the fact that you are with a white person. It's, like, a very interesting thing. And I think, like, anxiety is a good word for it, like what Claire said. Because I think there can be a lot of shame around the idea of not leaning into the part of your identity that is marginalized in order to propagate this, like, new world. But it's, like, a hard — it's a complicated thing, for sure.

Anita Rao
It feels like so much responsibility, you know, to think about, Claire, as you were saying, like, to be the one who's like, "Okay, I have to know all the cultural traditions. I have to be the one responsible for passing those forward." Have you had conversations, Claire, in dating relationships that have felt affirming in thinking about how a partner could support your mixed identity and this desire to feel connected with your Chinese heritage?

Claire Gallagher
I haven't really had that many, like, serious relationships. Like, my first boyfriend I ever had was really supportive about my identity and how I felt. He was white and definitely made an effort with, like, my family. And that was, like, my first experience. But since that relationship, I've had, like, a lot of experiences with guys where it just felt really, like, fetishizing. Like, when I was younger, I was talking to this guy who really didn't show me, like, any sort of physical affection, never really, like, affirmed the way that he felt about me at all, but would talk about having kids together. But, like, only in the context of, like, our kids would be so cute, because, like, he thought that mixed kids would look really cute together. But by no means were we, like, going on dates, or, like, in any way, like, moving towards a future where we would have kids. And I've had, like, a handful of guys tell me that they love Wasian girls, like, their type is Wasian girls, they think Wasian girls are so hot. I think it's really strange to say that your type is a race, or that you prefer a race if it's not for, like, cultural reasons. And it's, like, hard to make people that you're dating, like, understand. Because they see it as a compliment.

Anita Rao
Adiah and Claire are way more evolved than I was at that age. As I was getting ready for my conversation with them, I took a real trip down memory lane and I revisited my college application essay. And y'all, the way I talked about my mixed race identity as an 18-year-old was so, so, so bad. I will not subject you to the direct quotes, but just so you get the gist: the essay started with an extended metaphor about a jungle in which there lived a Bengali tiger, an English hound dog and an American eagle. And I was a multicolored parrot. I cried real tears when I was rereading it because I was laughing so hard. But behind the awful metaphors were a lot of real questions that I'm still working through. Like how do you navigate mixed identity in romantic relationships? And how do you find that elusive sense of belonging as a mixed person? These are questions that are really hard to answer on your own. Enter life coach Sarah Lotus Garrett.

Sarah Lotus Garrett
One of the most empowering things that happens in the course that I hold is that moment when mixed people realize, "Oh, my identity is going to shift depending on the context [of] where I am, who I'm with, and I cannot be relying on the narratives and the gatekeeping of others in order to feel whole within myself about my mixed identity."

Anita Rao
That course Sarah mentioned? It's a 10-week virtual program she runs for mixed adults, which includes both individual coaching sessions and meetings with a cohort. The whole reason I found out about Sarah is because a close friend of mine was part of one of Sarah's group programs and told me about how transformative it was to gather in a space with only other mixed people — and have dedicated time to process through challenging moments from the past that have occupied a lot of brain space. Sarah also runs a course for parents of mixed children, but that's a whole other conversation that I'm certain we'll have at another point. Sarah calls her virtual space the Mixed Bloom Room. And when people first enter it, she encourages them to set intentions and goals for their time with her.

Sarah Lotus Garrett
I think the one that I see most often is the desire to feel whole. And I think a lot of that comes through just having a — an idea of what your story is, you know? What your history is, and going over that intimately. Another thing that comes up is, "How do I use my privileges? And what are they?"

Anita Rao
As we talked about, I mean, folks can experience colorism even within their own families. Different siblings can look really different, have different skin tones and different skin shades. Can you talk to me about how you encourage folks to start those conversations with their families and how that can be a space for healing?

Sarah Lotus Garrett
I think that it's really important to address the pains that you have in a safe environment, because it is very scary to address with family. And one of the most important aspects about being able to address things with other people who do not share your experience is having the language. And a lot of people do not have a language. So I think it's really important to learn the language of your experience, learn the language of the mixed race experience, because there are commonalities. And do the healing that you can before you take that into your family. And then when you do, you just do it with love and grace and an open heart.

Anita Rao
I love that description of developing the language and understanding the language. And I think it has a lot to do with narrative and understanding the narratives that we've been told about mixed race identity, and maybe some of the rewriting we can do of those narratives for ourselves. What are some of the — the narratives that you've observed? That you think are harmful for mixed folks in — in thinking about and processing their identity?

Sarah Lotus Garrett
I think that one of the most common narratives is that mixed people don't belong anywhere. Which obviously, that's not true. But if you hear something again and again and again, you can internalize that narrative. Another one is that mixed people are confused. What I see in the course is that mixed people are not confused. Maybe the experience is nuanced. Maybe the experience is layered, or even complex. But once they start going through their story and learning the language from, you know, the other people in the cohort, they say, "Actually, I'm not confused. I'm very clear on what my story is, and where I come from, and who I am, and what my experience is like. And look, I have all this affirmation in the cohort. So I'm not confused." And that's really powerful.

Anita Rao
One of the terms that I've heard you talk about in an interview that you did is this mixed chatter. And it's this kind of internal dialogue that can ramp up for people when you start being really aware of how people are perceiving you. And it's this just, like, internal noise that is keeping you from being in the moment in a lot of ways. Can you talk about mixed chatter and the role it plays for folks?

Sarah Lotus Garrett
Yes, it really is about those narratives. And gatekeeping, you know, "Oh, what are you? Oh, no, you're not mixed." You know, there's a lot of gatekeeping that goes on for mixed people. And so the mixed chatter can really — man, it's a detriment. It's kind of heartbreaking, because it doesn't allow you to show up as your full, authentic self. And it doesn't allow other people to then show up as their authentic selves. So it's one of the things that we work on. And I think a lot of it, you know, starts with observing it. Like, what is your chatter? What are you worried about? Why are you worried about those things? Where did that come from? And then, through the whole process, what I've seen is that the mixed chatter sort of just kind of dies down. And that allows so much more space for, like, just being.

Anita Rao
I want to talk with you about a moment that comes up for me immediately when I hear you describe mixed chatter, which is — it happened pretty recently. I was at a conference and I was in a group of three other Asian women. We were talking about the experience of taking our friends, our white friends, to get food. We were just talking about — to get food. And I was about to, you know, say something about taking friends to get Indian food. And I had this moment where I realized that I wasn't sure that they knew that I was Indian. And I started to have all of this chatter, where it was like, "Okay, should I frame this question in a way that says, that makes it clear that I'm Indian? Should I just talk about getting Indian food and assume that they know?" And I felt super paralyzed. And that chatter got very, very loud. And I would love to know, like, how would you walk me through thinking through this and thinking about kind of deconstructing some of that — some of that mixed chatter. I'm gonna put you on the spot for some coaching here. [Laughs]

Sarah Lotus Garrett
[Laughs] I was gonna say, "There's a whole course for that Anita." But I would say that the next time that happens, to sort of observe what your thoughts are around it. What are you afraid of?

Anita Rao
I'm afraid that they are going to think a way about me, I guess? Think that I'm, like, an imposter. And I'm, like, injecting myself into a space that where I don't belong.

Sarah Lotus Garrett
That is a super common mixed experience. And what I would say to that is just, you know, send you some love and a hug around that. And then we can talk off radio. [Laughs]

Anita Rao
Yeah, no, that's super helpful, though. Just to name, I mean, even at having you ask me to name what I'm afraid of, like, I don't think I've even really gotten there. Like, the chatter is so repetitive that —

Sarah Lotus Garrett
Yeah, it's so —

Anita Rao
I didn't even, I don't boil it down enough to notice that.

Sarah Lotus Garrett
Yeah, one of the things that we work on in the course is this idea that you make sense. Because we're told that we don't make sense. So I was born in 1969 in Marin County, which is totally white. And it's in California so there's a very particular way of speaking, basically how I'm speaking right now. And my mom is white, my dad, he was Black. I did not grow up with him, I did not grow up with my Black family. I grew up in Marin County with a bunch of white people. You know, in this Marin County, super hippie dippie and super, like, "Oh, we don't see color," and so nothing was discussed, and I was very alone. But I grew up around white people. So, when people meet me, they're like, "You don't make any sense." Because my phenotype is, you know, I get read as Black and not mixed quite often. You know, actually, if you knew where I was born, when I was born, who my parents are, how I was raised, who my friends and family are, actually I make perfect sense.

Anita Rao
That's really beautiful. And I can imagine getting to a point where you can say that to yourself, and you really believe it, would be really healing.

Sarah Lotus Garrett
Yes, it is really healing. And it is actually just true. You can't really argue with yourself around that one. You make sense because you are. And this is why. This is the context.

Anita Rao
And as you said, you can find community through story and narrative. Through knowing your own, through finding yourself in other people's stories. And that can be a really powerful tool for healing.

Sarah Lotus Garrett
A lot of the groups on Instagram have meetups. And I also see this in the mixed adults course when you have, like, a little group of mixed people, and someone is talking about their experience. And everyone else is nodding their head, like "Oh, yeah, that resonates with me." That barely ever happens for us. So if you can find a community where you're getting that head nodding, that kind of experience is very, very healing. It's healing.

Anita Rao
I am still working on building that community for myself. Having my sister live close by has been huge. And I've stayed really tight with a few friends from college who I always turn to to process mixed life moments. But I'd certainly love to develop more mixed friendships. So if you're someone listening who wants to be part of at least a virtual version of that with me, reach out, for real. I want to meet you. From talking with Claire and Adiah, I learned that a lot of us could have been helped by spaces for multiracial students at school. When I went to college, there definitely wasn't one at UNC. So it's really cool now to see that some mixed race students are taking matters into their own hands.

Naomi Vanderlip
Hi, my name is Naomi Vanderlip and I'm a senior at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. And I am also the co-founder and president of our Cal Poly's Multiracial Students Association. Growing up, I was just told, "Oh, you're so lucky. The best of both worlds." I never had any conversations about my upbringing with other multiracial people. It was just, it was a fact. I would just say, "Oh, I'm Chinese, Dutch and French." In college, I've really had to think about my identity. Being multiracial isn't just the best of both worlds. But there's a lot of nuance there. For instance, like, not feeling that sense of belonging. Like, when we're joining cultural clubs there was a common theme that we didn't really feel like we belong, that we weren't enough of one race. I took it into my own hands to create my own space for that. And I think that's really powerful. I realized a lot of people like me, especially young adults, haven't really thought about being multiracial until it's been glaring. Like, just being forced to think about it has really made me more proud and made me able to put my emotions that I'd been feeling for about two decades into words.

Anita Rao
I am so excited for Naomi and all the folks in her orbit who will build this community that a lot of us really crave. Over the course of this conversation, we've been kind of circling around this idea of dissonance between how people perceive mixed folks, and how we feel on the inside. For Claire and Adiah, it's an ongoing journey to feel strong enough in their personal identity that other people's perceptions don't matter as much.

Claire Gallagher
Yeah, I, to be, like, totally honest, don't know if I've made that much progress in resolving that dissonance. And I do, like, really remember, like, every person that said, like, "Oh, when I first met you, I thought you were white." Or "When I first met you, I thought you were just Chinese" Or, like, I do really, like, focus on those things, like, what other people have told me. But I took Chinese classes at school, because I grew up speaking Chinese, but I never learned how to read or write. So I've been learning how to read and write. And that's been really cool, [it] helps me feel, like, closer to my family and more connected. So that's been helpful, but I think it's definitely like a learning curve. And I'm still working on it.

Anita Rao
Oh, 100% I certainly am too. Adiah, how about you?

Adiah Siler
Absolutely. It definitely does feel like a process. And I am reassured by the fact that I'm like, 21, and that I have a little bit time. [Laughs]

Anita Rao
[Laughs] Oh, yes. So much time.

Adiah Siler
[Laughs] So much time. But I feel like — I feel like recently especially I'm, like, working towards getting my BFA in writing. And I feel like in terms of the art that I've been creating, I've been trying to lean more into telling mixed and Black stories, like, talking about that dissonance in a way that feels, like, earnest. I found that when I was growing up, I would tell the people in my life that I identified as just, like, fully Black. I'm going to ignore anything else, because this is what I look like. And this is how I'm being treated. But I think now that I'm older and kind of experiencing, like, the ways in which that I benefit from being light-skinned, or the ways in which that I'm treated differently than, like, a fully Black person would be, I'm, like, leaning a little bit more into exploring, like, the dissonance and the disconnect. So I've been writing as though, yes, I'm unique in my own way, but also this is just, like, my life and this is just how I identify. And I find that that's been really helpful overall in my journey. Like, creating characters and worlds in which it's okay to explore that dissonance without it being, like, scary.

Anita Rao
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast, consider a contribution at wunc.org now. Storytelling like Embodied is only possible because of listeners like you.

This episode was produced by Kaia Findlay. Paige Perez also produces for our show, and Amanda Magnus is our editor. Skylar Chadwick is our intern, and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Quilla wrote our theme music.

And a special thanks to all the people who contributed to this episode, including Naomi, Gabrielle and Sarah R. If you have a story to share with us, thoughts about a recent episode or ideas about a topic you want us to cover, leave us a message at our virtual mailbox SpeakPipe. You can find a link in our show notes.

Thanks so much for listening to Embodied. And if you like the show, please spread the word in your own networks. Word of mouth recommendations to your friends or family are the best way to support our podcast and we so appreciate it.

Until next time, I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.

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