Hannah
Hi Embodied team. This is Hannah. Many of my friends are aware that I love sexting. I talk about it all the time. It's a fun pastime for me.
Dakota
Hi, I'm Dakota Ramppen. I'm a tough love relationship coach and sexuality educator from New Jersey, and sexting is one of my favorite topics.
Sydel
My name is Sydel Brown, and I'm a writer who thinks of sexting as a modern day love letter. So of course, I love it. For me, wordplay is like foreplay for the mind. It puts me in the mood with confirmation of connection and affection and attraction. It plants seeds of desire to act upon later. There's something so sexy about a partner letting you know you're on their mind, even if they're just in the other room. A little saucy message creating anticipation of what's to come.
Dakota
Sexing is a fun and less intimidating way to share your sexual desires and build arousal prior to meeting the person. You have some extra time to craft the perfect message without worrying too much about how it's going to sound. And how fun is it to use emojis to tell your partner what you want to do to them.
Hannah
The safety and additional layer of, like, protection and distance from a partner that sexting allows and provides enabled me over many years to be really honest and specific in ways that I don't think I would have been face to face. So sexting really allowed me to connect more honestly, and more competently, with my sexual desire.
Anita Rao
This is Embodied. I'm Anita Rao. We have talked so many times on this show about all the places we haven't gotten a great sex education. The middle school classrooms, our faith communities, the painfully awkward or nonexistent conversations with our parents. But what about where we did learn the most about sex? And in particular, sexual liberation?
For me, that's always been within my close circle of friends. A few months ago, I told you about getting my first vibrator as a gift from a childhood bestie. Now, although I'm solidly in adulthood, I'm still working through sexual hangups — like my trepidation around sexting. The folks who guide me on this journey are still those close friends who keep revealing new sides of themselves to me. Like Hannah, who you just met a minute ago.
Hannah
It's creative play independent of any physical connection. Like, I've sexted with people I have never met and never meet in person. We've had, like, great hot sext exchanges and that was it. And it's just, like, you're writing a little play. [Laughs] Sometimes you're just writing a little play together and it can be really fun.
Anita Rao
Technically, sexting is a pretty new word, and everyone defines the term a little bit differently. Overall, it refers to sharing sexual images or messages via your phone or some sort of digital app. Finding the fun in sexting and getting over any nervousness is similar to exploring any new type of pleasure. It's about balancing the risks and rewards, and making it your own. Learning to get more comfortable with sexting is something I certainly aspire to, which is why we brought in a skilled sexter. Meet Penda N'diaye.
Penda N'diaye
Sexing to me is really the best form of storytelling. And I think it's a very natural and beautiful way to evolve and progress and unveil you and your partner's needs in order to get off. Setting up a world that really describes you as the center of this beautiful orgasmic moment. And actually setting up the characters as you like.
Anita Rao
Penda is the Brooklyn-based founder of Pro Hoe, a storytelling platform working to eradicate stigma surrounding sexual freedom and identity in Black communities. She says that mastering the art of sexting starts with acknowledging that it doesn't need to be super complicated.
Penda N'diaye
It can really be as simple as, "I want to X your Y," but I think we make it more complicated. Because over time, let's be real, we've probably all consciously and unconsciously adopted different sex scripts that we've heard in romantic comedies or in music, or, you know, tried and true word of mouth. And so we try to replicate that, but it doesn't feel genuine to ourselves and authentic to ourselves. You know, it's like, are you really communicating things that are applicable in the moment and that describe what you actually want? And so, it's actually evolving to becoming like the author of my own erotica. To setting the stage for this dialogue. And that means, like, sometimes it's messy, sometimes you make mistakes, sometimes it's not sexy. And that's totally fine. But I think it's just about surprising yourself by staying very present in the moment. And so, that's kind of my journey now is, "Okay, this may not sound like anything else that I've ever heard or adopted in my entire 34 years of life. But actually, in this moment today, what am I feeling? How would I like to be touched? How would I like to be held? What does the aftercare look like? What does the foreplay look like?" So just being honest and honoring my own desires.
Anita Rao
In those 34 years of life, Penda's approach to talking about sex and sexuality has also gone through some big shifts. She grew up in a Senegalese American multireligious family in Denver, Colorado, and got her sex education mostly from magazines and late night HBO. In her early 20s, in the wake of a bad breakup, her mom gifted her a vibrator for Christmas. And that catalyzed an openness between them that hadn't existed before.
Penda N'diaye
It's really difficult to sext and to dirty talk if you've literally never spoken about sex openly. If you don't talk about it with your friends, if you don't talk about it with your partner, if you don't discuss it in your household, it's kind of very ambitious to think all of a sudden that, like, you're going to be able to just blurt out, you know, your kinky, sexy desires that no one has ever heard before. So I think it's a little bit of a catch 22 because it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability. Which, we just have not been encouraged to share, at least for women. So I think that that's one of the reasons why it's been really difficult for a lot of people to kind of tap in. You know, for me, I'm definitely more of a physical person than a cerebral person. So a lot of times I'm really locked in and focused on just [the] physical aspect of sex and not so much thinking about the emotional and mental aspects of the experience. My current partner now — a lot of times, he's like, "Tell me how you're feeling. I want to hear you verbalize, like — your body definitely personifies pleasure and the, you know, beautiful moments that we're having. But I also want to hear you vocalize it." And so, I think that's been a challenge for me as well. And — and being in a very supportive partnership, where he encourages me to kind of speak up and find my voice has been very liberating. So it takes a little bit of courage. But I think that for me, finding confidence makes my partner feel confident, it makes me feel confident, and it just kind of sets the stage to — to be a little messy. Sex is always a little messy.
Anita Rao
You got to so much in there. And it really resonates with me, because I mean, I feel very comfortable talking about sex publicly. Obviously, I'm talking about it on a radio show. But the idea of — of sexting feels especially vulnerable to me. There's something about knowing how to articulate that where I'm like, "I don't know. I don't feel confident. I'm self conscious." So, where do I start? Are there some prompts or exercises you'd recommend for folks who feel overwhelmed by the whole process?
Penda N'diaye
If you're someone who likes to journal, that's an amazing thing. Like, what does fulfilling euphoric sex look like for you? How does it feel? Are you someone who enjoys romance or innuendo? Are you a comedian? Do you like humor and goofiness? I think being spontaneous or off the cuff, that adds a lot of pressure too. So don't be afraid to actually sit down and write it out. So I think you can try different prompts, like, you know, "I love it when you're tender with me, when you're bossing me around." Like, that's a great prompt to kind of set up, hey, maybe you're kind of into power play or those dynamics, or you can say, "I like a lot of buildup and teasing before we really get explicit. You know, subtlety and tension, those are my favorite things." So kind of setting up these prompts that include boundaries, that include different themes and different ways that you enjoy sex is a great way. And you can totally try out some of these lines by yourself, you know, if you want to have like a Zoolander moment in the mirror and just say these things. Or you know, like, just kind of leading with the language that best represents your own persona and your sexual likes, it becomes easier. Like with everything, practice makes perfect. And so, I think, for me, I said it in the beginning. It's like, centering yourself, but what does that look like? Who are the characters? Who are the people involved? Are you into a threesome? You know, are you into BDSM and you want to set up those dynamics? So, you want to put yourself first and center yourself and your desires and what feels good to you. And that's where I would definitely start.
Anita Rao
Author your own erotica. I am so into that concept. And I had a real giggle thinking about standing in the mirror dirty talking to myself. But to be honest, it is not that different from some of the things I've done to get more comfortable speaking behind the mic. There has been a lot of talking to myself in the mirror. So now I've just got to try to make it a little steamier.
One of my favorite parts of Embodied is that on research and prep days, I get to spend time deep diving into these topics. When it's something like sexting, there are always a few moments where I wonder what would happen if someone in the University IT department looked through my browser history. For this show, it spanned articles from "60 Hot Sexting Ideas for Your Inspiration" to "Sexting and Privacy Violations: A Case Study of Sympathy and Blame." The latter, which is certainly less objectionable, was written by Amy Hasinoff, who is a sexting expert, academic edition. While it's hard to get solid numbers about any kind of sexual activity, Amy says that it's fair to conclude that sexting is common among people of all ages. And the concept behind it has been around for centuries.
Amy Hasinoff
There's such a long history of people using whatever media is available to them to talk to each other about sex. There's even a story I came across in a book I was reading about someone who met a partner over the telegraph line that she was operating in her father's store in, like, the late 1800s. And they ended up, like, eloping together and there was a bit of a panic about this because, you know, what did it mean that girls were able to meet men that, you know, they didn't have their parents' approval for through these new forms of networked media? So it's interesting to see how much technology changes the sort of, fundamental moral panics in the media at least seem to repeat over times.
Anita Rao
Amy has thought a lot about the moral panic around sexting. It was even a subject of a book she wrote in 2015. It traces things back to a formative moment in 2008 when Cosmo and the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy co-released a study about the popularity of sexting. It concluded that roughly one in five teens were sending naked photos to one another.
Amy Hasinoff
It was sort of a explosive, sort of moral panic for about, I think the next five to 10 years, about just girls being visible as girls online. And there was so much concern about two things: mostly the legal aspects of it, because sexting, if it's an image and if it's explicit enough, it technically counts as child pornography. And it still does in a lot of states. A lot of states have newer laws that define sexting as a misdemeanor, but they don't necessarily make it impossible for prosecutors to use the child pornography charge. So potentially, it's a felony. So there was all this sort of panic about that, and a couple news stories about teens that ended up on sex offender registry lists for non-consensual image distribution. And then the sort of second panic was these girls, right? What has become of our society that we have girls sending sexual images of themselves to people? And there was just sort of, I would say, an extreme level of panic about girls' sexual behavior and how wrong this was. That was the sort of the message in a lot of mass media. And in that era, and you know, I'd started researching it, and I would still get questions from audiences and colleagues that would just sort of asked me like, "Why? Why would anyone send a sexual image of themselves to someone else?" And, you know, the answer was always, "Well, why would you do any sexual act?" Hopefully, you're doing it because it brings you pleasure. But at the time, when this was a new panic, somehow people didn't put those things together.
Anita Rao
Totally. But there is a real concern for parents, obviously, if your kid is going to be charged with a child pornography charge that is huge and disturbing. And the thing about these laws is they don't really differentiate between whether or not images are being sent in a consensual way or not. So talk to me about that, and some of the ramifications of the way that we currently police sexting, especially for young folks.
Amy Hasinoff
Yeah, absolutely. That's the main problem with with a lot of these laws. And that's the case whether it's the felony child pornography laws, and many of the misdemeanor sexting laws that have been passed in the sort of wake of the sexting panic also failed to distinguish between consensual sexting and nonconsensual image distribution. So, for example, some girls had shared images of themselves with their boyfriends, and then the boyfriends pass them around. And then what ended up happening was that everyone was suspended from school. And that's the sort of the core issue with how people were thinking about sexting then was just that it's wrong, no one should do it ever. Now, of course, we know from many different social problems that advocating an abstinence approach to something that a lot of people are doing doesn't work at all. All it does is create shame and stigma. And then it — what it really does is it opens the door for prosecutors, and, you know, school principals and whoever is exerting the power in these situations, to just reinforce, like, structural forms of inequality. So — so, there was some evidence that queer youth were being punished and charged for consensual sexting much more than their straight peers. That youth of color were being targeted. That kids in the foster care system were being targeted. That — that when you have something that's illegal that a lot of people are doing, like, who is going to actually get punished for it? And it's always very predictable, of like, it's not going to be equally applied.
Anita Rao
As Amy was alluding to, the legal piece of all of this is really hairy. And in many ways, the law has not caught up to our existing technology. If you're over the age of 18 and consensually sexting, you don't have anything to worry about. But if at least one of the parties is under 18 and an exchange of sexually explicit content is reported to law enforcement, it's possible you could be charged. There can also be legal repercussions for sexting if it qualifies as harassment or image-based sexual abuse, which is better known legally as revenge porn. Twenty-seven states in this country have sexting-specific laws. And we'll put some resources that you can dig into to learn more about your state in the show notes. It's good to be aware of some of the legal details — but don't panic. While some folks may feel like the solution is to crack down on teen sexting, Amy says that is worrying about the wrong thing. Instead of trying to tell teens to not sext, focus more on educating them about digital privacy and consent. Sexting is only sexy and safe when you trust the person you're doing it with, and have an understanding that consent is a top priority. Penda, of course, has this down to a science.
Penda N'diaye
I like to kind of set up the consent in a sexy way, if that's possible. It's not always possible. But some of the prompts that I like, you know, "Can I tell you about how oral sex turns me on if you're into that, too?" So, the latter part of the prompt actually sets up the consent and allows the person to answer yes or no. And then, you know, "Are you in a private place right now?" And I think that's also really important to set up that the person has the actual emotional and mental capacity to respond. Because that's also such a hit to your confidence if you share this very vulnerable sext and then your partner doesn't or the person doesn't respond for three hours. You know, that doesn't feel great, either. And another prompt, you know, is, "Can I tell you about some of the hot things I've been thinking about? And can I hear what you've been thinking about too?" So, setting it up in a way it's like, "Can I share?" and also, "I'd love for you to share too." Sexting is starting with a prompt, you know, asking if they're okay with it. And then the latter is also then confirming that it's totally fine if you're not into it. Or if you're not in the space to do it right now, that's fine. I think it's really about creating that space that people feel safe in saying no.
Anita Rao
Have you ever been in a scenario where things maybe turn in a direction that didn't feel comfortable after the fact? And maybe your relationship with that person turned sour? Or — or something happened where you maybe didn't feel as good about things that you had shared that this person might have? And how did you handle that?
Penda N'diaye
Yes definitely. I think this kind of ties into the consent. I definitely was in a relationship with someone, and sexting was a very big part of our relationship. And I really enjoyed it. And the moment that I felt unsafe is I just realized that the person wasn't respecting my time, and it was becoming, like — they were bombarding me with messages and with images and with videos and with — with voice notes. And just because you agree to do something one day or one time doesn't mean the other person on the other end should assume that you're always going to be in a space to receive that. And so we had to have a very difficult conversation of saying, you know, it's kind of like the, you know, when you give someone an inch, like, they take a mile. I do feel like some people don't respect boundaries unless you're very clear about it. And so, in that relationship, it definitely taught me really about how important it is to consistently check in with the person on the receiving end. To always, you know, value that we're constantly evolving and who we are today, how we show up today, it's not the same person that we weren't yesterday, or the last time that you were talking to me or sexting me.
Anita Rao
Both Amy and Penda have some amazing sexting resources on how to make sexting safer and more fun. When it comes to nudes Amy recommends cropping your face or other identifying marks out of photos; deleting old photos often and asking your partner to do the same; and considering an app that deletes photos automatically after they've been used. Penda has a digital workbook called "How to Talk Dirty Without Sounding Fake." We'll link all of it in our show notes.
Anita Rao
I believe that it is certainly possible to build a fun and vibrant sexting life while still maintaining your privacy. And I think the best way to do it is for all of us to keep sharing our takeaways with one another. That life long sex ed. Someone that's committed to doing that super publicly is a creator behind the Instagram and TikTok account Sex Ed Files. This is Mariah.
Mariah
I have a pretty complicated relationship with sexting, because I've had several experiences where my consent was violated and my privacy was invaded — both as a young person and as an adult. When I was younger, my lack of sex education kind of led me to some uncomfortable situations related to sexual coercion or feeling pressured to send nude photos. And I did. I sent photos to someone and they got shared with every one. This happened to a lot of my peers, I'm definitely not alone in that experience, I imagine. But this situation tainted my interest in sexting. And it also gave me this, "I don't give a [beep]" attitude, I would say. I think sexting can be fun. And I do think it's an incredible tool for intimacy. I think it's also technically a safer type of sex. But I'm personally still learning how to find pleasure in sexting. Because I can't help but wonder anytime I want to send my partner sexy photo or video that it'll get out somehow, even if I trust them. I'm not closed off to the idea of sexting more, I definitely would like to do it more. I just need to find a healthier relationship with it. One that makes me feel really good. One that makes me feel sexy, in control and powerful. What I'm learning is that with any sort of sexual activity, or anything related to pleasure, people have different preferences. And I — I don't want to put pressure on myself to figure it out right away. And I think that's okay.
Anita Rao
Like Mariah, there are folks around the country who are also dedicated to creating open spaces for young folks to talk about sexting — and to answer their burning questions.
Aaliyah
I teach sixth through eighth graders. Most of them do ask if it's okay to be sexting, if it's okay if they send a photo and you don't like it, if it's okay if you do like it.
Anita Rao
That's Aaliyah. She's a graduating high school senior in New York City who participates in a peer-led sex ed program. Her personal philosophy; give everyone the honest truth.
Aaliyah
There was one question that I had that was like, "What happened if my consent was violated?" And honestly, this is exactly how I answered all those questions. I was like, "Listen, if you guys liked them, and if you like sexting, that's how you like showing your love for them, it's okay to be sexting. There's no issue with that. But if your consent got violated, if you feel like they violated your own personal bubble, your own personal space, then that you will have to talk to the person with." I had a lot of people, at their age, send me just random, like, nudity pictures. And that was really uncomfortable. I was like, "Oh, my God, what do I do? I don't know what to do. Should I send them this? Should I send them that?" And honestly, if you feel like you should send them a picture, then you send a picture. But if you feel like you got violated, don't do anything about it.
Anita Rao
Yeah. You bring up such a good point, too. Because it's like, you can be violated both by you sending something that someone doesn't then respect, but also someone sending you something totally unsolicited is not comfortable.
Aaliyah
Exactly. No one is pressuring you. You don't have to send it. And just, like, I'm going to be very honest. When I was at their age, I didn't have any friends. It was like, I only had me, myself and I. So I had to know more common sense of, "If I did this, where would this lead to?" Because nowadays, people like to screenshot, repost, do this and do that, and just share it around in the internet and social media.
Anita Rao
Well, that seems super stressful and scary. I mean, I grew up — I didn't get a smartphone until college. [Laughs] I'm definitely older than you. Like, how do you think about your own digital privacy? Are there boundaries that you have with what you would sext and what you wouldn't to hopefully prevent yourself from situations like that happening?
Aaliyah
Yeah, so I'm actually in a relationship. And my partner does know that I'm very insecure. But he showed me how to love my own body. At first we didn't send an pictures or any photos and he respected that. And he was like, "Okay." And then he was just like, "When you're comfortable. I'll go at your pace." That's all he said. He'll go at my pace. And when I started feeling comfortable with little things, we've got to continue doing more and more and more.
Anita Rao
So I know that you and your mom are really close. You guys have a close relationship. And I would love to know a little bit about how your conversations with her have shaped how you approach sexting in particular. What did she say about it?
Aaliyah
Me and my mom's relationship wasn't as close before. The way that it started getting really, really close was we actually started communicating more, and I laid down my foot. And I told her like, "Listen, I'm going to tell you things. I'm growing up. Would you rather me tell you or me tell somebody else? Yeah, you're gonna be like, 'Damn. Oh, I don't want to hear that.' This, this, and this. No, you're gonna hear it. Because you're my mom." You know?
Anita Rao
Yeah, either it's you or someone else. And you'd probably rather that.
Aaliyah
Exactly. So, ever since that conversation, like, we've always been in a cool vibe. Or, like, we always talked about things that not a lot of people talk about with their moms. I'm blessed to have, like, a great mom. When I brought up that topic to her, her eyes widened up so fast. It was really funny. She's always saying like, "Just be cautious." She was like, "Remember to always respect your body, your body is your home. At the end of the day, yeah, you can have four walls, you could have a family, but your body is your home."
Anita Rao
I know that sexting for some people can be a way to explore, like, parts of their sexuality
Aaliyah
Yeah.
Anita Rao
in a way that's a little bit less high stakes, maybe? Or feels a little bit less vulnerable because
Aaliyah
Yeah.
Anita Rao
you're — you're doing it on your own terms. Is there anything that you have been able to discover about your self and your own sexuality through sexting.
Aaliyah
Of course. So I am actually bisexual. So I do like females and males. There are very big differences in both of them while sexting. A male doesn't really specify what he wants. So like I said before, I teach sixth, seventh and eighth [grade]. And we always say that for consent, or if you want to do something that contains sex, you always got to be specific and enthusiastic of what you want. Men are not like that. Men do not know what they want. Men are just like, "Come here. Make out with me." Like, no. Tell me exactly what you want. With girls, they know what they want. Like, they'll tell you word by word what they want. They'll be like, "Come here, I want to kiss. I want a hug. I want you to wrap your arms around me." They're very elaborate. The boys will, like, run around what they want, and the girls will tell you pinpoint what they want.
Anita Rao
And yeah, I mean through sexting, you can kind of learn your own language for that, right? And how to be super specific.
Aaliyah
Yeah, you can.
Anita Rao
So I know that you obviously teach your peers sex ed and you know that it's something that you can continue to learn about throughout your whole life. I feel like there's still so much that I am learning about sex and sexuality in my body. And I'm curious for you, like, in this phase of life, are there things that you still really want to learn more about that you feel like would help you feel more empowered and competent in your body?
Aaliyah
Yeah, I actually just want to know more about, like, the body and how it responds to, like, our sexual orientation. And when you see that person that you like, I want to see how the body responds when they are ready to have sex. When they are horny. I just want to get to know more of the body. I actually love the body. The body is, like — it's crazy.
Anita Rao
The body is truly a wild place. And I'm so here for Aaliyah's curiosity about it. I wish I had the wherewithal to tell it like it is when I was her age. I can only imagine my parents' reaction to me sitting down with them and saying, "Listen, I am growing up." I'll be sure to fill you in on their perspective on sexting once they listen to this episode. Before we close, I want to give a huge shout out to everyone who contributed to today's show, including Mariah, Dakota, Sydel and Hannah. And I want you to hear a little bit more from them, and what they think makes a good sext.
Dakota
Sexts that always stand out to me are sexy pictures or nudes. I'm a visual person, and it's a great way to start a conversation about what I want to do to them.
Sydel
My favorite sexts were with a lover who was overseas for work. I loved sending him a sexy scenario only to find out he was about to go into a meeting. Oops, good luck concentrating on your meeting. It was so fun knowing that there was a whole barrage of sexy messages coming at me as soon as he was ready to respond.
Hannah
The best kind of sexting is honest and specific, extremely specific. So specific that you're a little bit embarrassed. That's what makes good sexting.
Anita Rao
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast, consider a contribution at wunc.org.
This episode is produced by Paige Perez. Kaia Findlay also produces for our show, and Amanda Magnus is our editor. Skylar Chadwick is our new intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. We also got engineering help on this episode from Al Wodarski and Russ Henry. Quilla wrote our theme music.
If you have a story to share with us, thoughts about a recent episode or ideas about a topic you want us to cover, leave us a message in our virtual mailbox SpeakPipe. You can find a link in our show notes. Here's a message that we got this past week that we absolutely love.
Listener
Hi, I just listened to your distracted message. And I found it very affirming. Growing up being one of the few people of color and being a little girl with ADHD, there just was — just so little tolerance for my disability in that regard. And so little education around it. Then I went on to marry somebody who has ADHD because apparently that's a thing where people with ADHD tend to find each other. And so I'd just love to hear more people's experience with this. I'm like hungry for it.
Anita Rao
Thank you so much to that listener, and thanks to you for listening to Embodied. If you like the show, please spread the word in your own networks. Word of mouth recommendations are the best way to support our podcast, and we so appreciate your support.
Until next time, I'm Anita Rao taking on the taboo with you.