Lawrence
I didn't see my first kiss coming. It happened when I was in middle school — Robin. She was going out with my best friend Ted. At a classmate's party, word spread that she'd dumped him and that she liked me. I was scared. My friends sent me into a room where Robin was sitting alone on a couch. I sat next to her, and, suddenly, her tongue was halfway down my throat. Apparently my friends were all watching, including Leslie, who had a camera. I haven't seen the picture since it made the rounds in middle school, but I do remember clearly is that you couldn't see her face. Just her hands on the back of my head, gripping it like she was a gorilla cracking open a coconut to eat.
Caroline
My first kiss was in a play when I was in eighth grade, and the boy I was playing opposite was the most popular boy in school. And I thought he was very cute, but every night before we had to do the kiss, he would lick his lips. And every night it would just make me cringe.
Stephen
I was probably in sixth or seventh grade at a friend's birthday party. And at that party, they decided to play, essentially, spin the bottle. I kissed many different girls at that party. And while I do remember my first kiss — it was making out in front of the group and making out for at least two minutes — it's embarrassing because I wish I had a better story. I wish I knew the person that I kissed first. I do remember kissing my first girlfriend as well, and that feels more like my first kiss.
Anita Rao
That was Lawrence, Caroline and Stephen. I'm Anita Rao, and this is Embodied — our show about sex, relationships and your health.
I like to think about the moments before a first kiss as a kind of dance. For me, back in eighth grade, that very first dance looked like two strangers trying to avoid running into each other on the sidewalk. All missteps, no grace. At that point, my middle school boyfriend and I had been dating for a few months. We sat next to each other every day on the bus and passed notes in pre-algebra, but pretty much avoided ever being alone together.
One fall afternoon, I suggested we meet up to walk our dogs around the neighborhood, and I was pretty sure this was the moment it was going to happen. But after four trips around the block, I lost hope. So I hugged him goodbye, and then quickly stood up on my tiptoes and kissed him on the cheek. As I hurriedly walked away, I yelled behind me, "Well, you were never going to do anything." Next thing I knew, he had caught up to me. He leaned down, and well, you know how the rest of the story goes.
Thankfully, I've had many more first kisses since eighth grade that were so much less awkward. But one thing that's remained the same is how much more memorable the first kiss of a relationship is than all the ones that come after. There's this almost immediate sense of, yes, I'd like more of this. Or no, I'd be happy to never kiss this person again.
Sheril Kirshenbaum
So that memory is powerful, and part of the reason is because we're engaging all of our senses. And there's even been research looking at different firsts in our lives and how vivid different details of those experiences are — from first sexual experience to first kiss. And first kiss wound up being the moment that people can remember the most about in the significant relationships in their lives. And so it is a really powerful memory for us.
Anita Rao
That's Sheril Kirshenbaum, a scientist and author at Michigan State University. She never set out to become a kissing specialist. In fact, if you time traveled to meet her 20 years ago, you'd likely find her dissecting a sea cucumber in a marine lab. So how do you get from marine biology to kissing? Well, it started with a short one-off piece she wrote in 2008 for Valentine's Day. The response to that piece about kissing was so overwhelming that she decided to look into what other information was out there. Turns out there wasn't much. And that's how the journey to writing her book "The Science of Kissing" began. She starts with that most fundamental question: why do we kiss? Is it nature or nurture?
Sheril Kirshenbaum
In the end, I think it's really a complement. I don't think it's an either/or, I think it's a bit of both. So we have what we call the proximate reasons and the ultimate reasons. The proximate reasons are what's going on in our own lives? Why do we express ourselves this way? And, for most of us, our earliest experiences feeling comfort, security, love involves some kind of lip stimulation, whether it's through nursing or even bottle feeding. Other cultures use pre-mastication to feed their infants, which is the pre-chewing of food. Or whether it's just, like, what we would recognize as a kiss on the lips, a kiss on the forehead. So it lays down neural pathways in our brain that, later in life, when we want to express how we feel with different people that we love, we often express ourselves through a kiss. Now the ultimate reasons have to do with, you know, why is this beneficial for our species? And that has everything to do with being attracted to the color of lips being red, because red was often — in our ancestors and other primates — red could indicate fruit that was ripe. It was a color that we're primed, as individuals and as communities, to seek out for sustenance. Also, the lips are packed with sensitive nerve endings, so even a slight brush against the lips is going to feel very powerful for us as individuals. In the end, it is all about connection.
Anita Rao
I feel like we need to do a whole show just about the lips because, y'all, they are so underrated. Our lips are our most exposed erogenous zones and one of the most sensitive places on our bodies. Sheril's book has this really wild image of a sculpture crafted to represent the relationship between each part of our body and the proportion of brain tissue dedicated to processing sensory information that comes from it. The lips and tongue are huge compared to the other features because they contain so many nerve endings. So what happens when your lips touch someone else's? What information is it that gets sent to the brain?
Sheril Kirshenbaum
There is just so much going on, and, I guess, the first part of that is — is this someone that we want to be kissing? Is this a romantic kiss? Are we feeling comfortable? Because stress and kissing don't mix. If it's a really stressful situation, or an environment where we're not comfortable, you get a spike in cortisol — which is the stress hormone — and it's not going to feel so good. But if we assume that everything is just right, and this is someone that you've really been interested in — especially for a long time — then you get a spike in a neurotransmitter called dopamine. And dopamine is famously associated with craving and desire. It's that "can't wait to have something or someone" kind of feeling. And that can go way up during a first kiss.
We also have a spike in norepinephrine more generally, and so our heart races, our palms might sweat, our pulse quickens. Our pupils can dilate, which is one reason we think so many people close their eyes when they kiss — because there's that involuntary dilation of pupils, and we close our eyes. Oxytocin, which we often call "the love hormone," that is involved as well. It's very associated with connection and comfort and security. And that can definitely be induced through kissing and cuddling and hugging. And we use those signals to help us figure out what comes next. Is — if it's a pleasurable experience, you know, do we decide to do something more? Or do we just enjoy that kiss itself?
Anita Rao
So we've been alluding a lot to romantic kissing so far, and I want to broaden out a little bit to talk about the many other kinds of kiss. There's the platonic kiss on the cheek greeting that's common in a lot of European cultures. There are kisses with and without tongue — of course, we have the French kiss. So talk about how kissing has evolved to meet these wide variety of needs for connection.
Sheril Kirshenbaum
The shape and the style that kissing takes, in any given place, is entirely influenced by culture. So if we're reading about romantic kisses in literature, and we're reading Romeo and Juliet, if we're seeing kissing in film and television on billboards, that is going to affect our own impressions of what it should look like and how it should take place. And of course, this is well beyond romantic kissing, as you're saying, because greetings are so common in Europe, in different parts of Central America, South America. And it has to do with just what's familiar to that community, what's accepted, and so there is no wrong way to do it. And we've seen — because being spread, you know, kissing spread in certain places during World Wars, because different communities were encountering each other and greeting each other who had really not had those opportunities before. And of course, French kissing isn't a term that the French even came up with. It was kind of a saying, because French women were considered very warm. And when different soldiers were traveling and wound up in France, there was a saying: "Oh, when you're in France, get the girls to kiss you." And that kind of changed in style and language to get a French kiss. And now that's associated with the tongue kiss and some other cultures call it soul kissing. So there's all sorts of different words for it.
Kristin
My first kiss — and I will date myself — was in Kevin Costner's movie "Robin Hood." And the boy I went to the movie with turned my chin towards him and started kissing me. And I didn't like it. So I grabbed his hands eventually and held them captive on the movie theater seat between us. Sometime later he tugged at his hands, and I held tighter. And he said, "I have to scratch my contact," and I let his hands go. And that story makes so much more sense now 30 years later, when I realized that I am asexual. And I don't like some forms of physicality and signs of affection. But it took me a long time to figure that out.
Anita Rao
That's a listener from Texas named Kristin. How comfortable you feel kissing someone or receiving affection shifts not only as you age and make sense of your identity, but also as you move through geographic space and take note of how others respond to you. Photographer Kadar Small has been documenting public displays of affection in New York City for years. But his awareness of how people read queer bodies and queer intimacy dates back to when he was a 10th grader in Atlanta, Georgia.
Kadar Small
It was during the spring, I believe it was some sort of like campfire party that we were doing. And this one particular night, these two popular students were, like, talking to each other, these two guys, and they, like, go towards the back of the woods. And they started kissing and making out. They thought they were alone. But little did they know that a whole bunch of people were, like, staring at them. So when they came out, they came out a little bit embarrassed. One left and other one left were his friends. The next day of school was very interesting, because again, like I said, these students very well known and popular. So I thought it would probably be embraced, especially me being from New York. But being down South, I got to see more of these Black students get ridiculed and be judged for sharing a kiss and for liking one another. And that was very, very shocking for me. I wasn't out at the time, but I definitely was not coming out as bisexual when I saw that happened.
Anita Rao
No, I mean, that sounds like a very hostile environment and obviously hard to feel comfortable expressing yourself. As you got older, you moved back to New York City and you started photographing, you started photographing at nightclubs and had a lot more exposure to open queer culture. What was that transition like? And how did your conception of kissing evolve?
Kadar Small
I have to say going back home, I would say, like, I got to really come out of my shell. That's when I was like, "Oh, wow, like, this is the sort of environment that I really enjoy and I really like." And that's what really got me into thinking about this photo series that I'm shooting currently, "PDA": public display of affection.
Anita Rao
Yeah, I'd love to know more about that. And then the story behind the project in particular.
Kadar Small
Yes, yes. So "PDA," public display of affection, is an ongoing photo series about the BIPOC community normalizing showing intimate moments in domestic and public spaces. It's just basically the queer community. So I'm documenting individuals that have been dating for six plus months, some for two years, and so on. And I'm also documenting queer singles, and documenting their own personal journey, because I really believe that you can't love anybody else until you learn how to love yourself first.
Anita Rao
These photographs are so so beautiful. And there's so much texture and so many different emotions that are coming through in each of the images. How did people that you encountered in public react to y'all shooting?
Kadar Small
Um, so it was very interesting. So especially with being living in New York City, like I said, New York City is very progressive, but there's still parts of New York City that are still very homophobic. So for instance, I remember one time when I was shooting, my two sitters, The and Tiff — their pronouns are she/her, both of them — and they were explaining to me, just like, their experience with PDA and what they were comfortable with. And then we started out in Crown Heights at a park. Regular kissing scene, the sun was hitting them so perfectly, and then this man comes up that's, like, filling up his water bottle into the shot of this. And he's just, like, literally staring at them. And like the water bottle is now at this point full, like so now you just see the water like overflowing the water bottle and he's like literally gawking at them, staring at them. And I got that shot. And I was like, "Are you good?" And he was like, "No, no, no, I'm good. I'm good. This is just so beautiful." So I was like, "Okay, I love that. That's great."
And then literally 10 minutes later, a lady comes up behind us and she has to be probably in her 60s, this Black lady, and she goes in and starts saying like Bible scriptures and like, "Oh god this, god that, that's disgusting, da da da da da." And then we literally just like sat there because for me anytime I'm shooting and I see something like I have to say something for me, like, especially if like my sitters are affected by it, I have to say something. I said, "Why is this disgusting?" Me and her were, like, not going back and forth I was explaining to her, I'm like, "Ma'am, I understand your opinions. But that makes no sense for you to try to come up and try to disturb our peace." And then later on, someone else came up to the park and like yelled out, "Love is love!", and was just so great that we were being embraced while somebody was trying to come up and like, basically take away our shine and, like, make us feel bad about what we wanted to do. So that was very, very all interesting. And that all happened within the span of 15-20 minutes. And that's why I said, You gotta love New York City.
Anita Rao
Wow. I mean, this is an interesting echo of the ways in which you know, we've observed and noted one another's kissing behaviors throughout history, which I know that you have documented, Sheril, these expectations about who can kiss and how kissing looks. And these have roots in colonialism. Tell us about how kissing customs have been shaped by colonialism and racism.
Sheril Kirshenbaum
Sure, well, we have accounts, one of the things I did while I was researching this book was to try to look at different writings of so-called explorers who are going to different parts of the world and experiencing life in communities that not many Europeans had been to. And there is one account in particular where I remember, supposedly this man was writing that he had fallen in love with the king's daughter of this community, he was living amongst — in part of Africa. And at some point, he describes leaning in to give her a kiss. And to his horror, she runs screaming from the hut where they were, and only later does someone else inform him that she had never experienced mouth-to-mouth kissing before. And she thought by pressing his lips on her body in that way, he was interested in eating her. And so you know, this means of connection — while we think about kissing as a behavior we all experience — the shape it takes, of course, is influenced by who we're interacting with in society, and the images we see and how we're raised. And so the fact that, you know, you're working on these, these photographs that sound beautiful, of different types of people connecting, I mean, that can be such a powerful means to change our expectations about what it looks like for two people to show each other affection, regardless of you know, how they identify or who they are.
Anita Rao
So yeah, as you're mentioning, I mean, there are some assumptions about what is universal about kissing and what isn't. And I know that since your book came out, there has been this anthropology study that got a lot of attention that was showing that signs of romantic sexual kissing were found in only 46% of cultures around the world. That was really surprising to me. And it led to a lot of people arguing, kissing is not actually a universal experience. What do you make of that?
Sheril Kirshenbaum
It really comes down to what we define as kissing. I think it's fair to say that yes, not all cultures have kissed mouth-to-mouth and certainly still don't today, as that study pointed out. But I think, one, if we kind of take the Darwin perspective of saying like, kissing is a socially significant means of human connection. As we look across the animal kingdom at different parallels in other species — I don't want to anthropomorphize so I don't always assume that we can understand the emotions of other animals by their behavior — but we see animals like the bonobos, sucking on each other's tongues for 10 minutes straight out of affection. We see chimpanzees hugging and you know, tapping lips. We see things that look very similar for this means of connection. So I think, with that kind of perspective, it is fair to say in some regard, it is a universal experience.
Anita Rao
Kadar, this project has really evolved for you over the years that you have been doing it. You mentioned that at a certain point, you really became interested in thinking more about what's going on more deeply here. So talk to me about some of these deeper threads that you're looking for when you're working on this project.
Kadar Small
I think one of the main points that I'm getting from this series, that I'm learning, is that kissing represents really freedom, especially for the queer community in today's climate. Yes, kissing is also universal. But there's still a privilege within kissing, depending on how you look and where you're from. I've even learned for myself that me being a cis man, I have the privilege of showing PDA with my partner who happens to be a male or who happen to be a woman. We're now in a society where they're trying to shove us back in the closet. So I think this is a time now to really speak up and to be truly who we are and to show that.
Caitlin
A seventh grade Caitlin had watched enough "ATL" and "High School Musical" to know that when her first kiss happened, it was supposed to have doves flying in the wings and sparks and fireworks — and there was none of that. There was an eighth grader who I had the biggest crush on. There's no way he didn't know I had a crush on him. I was always staring. And I think there was one time that we were playing outside, we had both gone in to get water. I'm pretty sure he went in to go get water and I followed him. And I walked up behind him, he asked me my name, I told him. After that we chatted for maybe a few minutes. And he kissed me. It wasn't anything special, there was tongue. I think our tongues might have explored each other's mouths for a second or two. And that was it. We went on about our day as if nothing even happened.
Jeanine
I was in seventh grade. And my friend was like, "Oh, this guy likes you." And I was like, "Oh, why not?" One time he was walking me towards class, which is like a traditional at our school for boyfriends and girlfriends to do, even though we weren't dating. And when he dropped me off at class, he let go of my hand, and he turned and just kissed me. All I literally remember is him walking away. And I just felt like a dab of spit on my mouth. And I was a bit disgusted. It was not how I imagined my first kiss to be. And to make it even worse, it was in the middle of the classroom. So I was sitting right in the center of the classroom, and everybody saw it happen. And I was extremely embarrassed.
Anita Rao
That was Caitlin and Jeanine. They both worked with our radio station's Youth Reporting Institute. While I got my first kiss when I was a grade older than they were, that was also a few decades ago. So as we were working on the show, I really started to wonder if kissing behaviors have changed at all since I was in middle school. Is kissing in a hallway a whole different ballgame when everyone has a cell phone? Are movie theater make-outs still that much of a big deal? I asked three other current and former youth reporters to school me.
Chris Williams
Hey, everybody, I'm Chris Williams. I am a sophomore at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Parys Smith
Hi, my name is Parys Smith. I'm currently in the 12th grade and I go to Riverside High School.
Donna Diaz
Hi, my name is Donna Diaz. I am a junior at Riverside High School. I feel like I was a late bloomer. Like everyone in my friend group already had their first kiss. So with the boy that I was talking to at the time, we went to the movies for a date. And we went to go see "Sonic the Hedgehog 2." And we were sitting in the movie theater and, like, he was just like talking to me being like, "Oh, I like you so much. Like, will you be my girlfriend?" And I was a sophomore at the time. So I was like, "Oh my God, like, yes." And we're watching the movie, and I'm looking straight at the movie. And then I'd feel these eyes like, upon me. And I'm like, I know if I look at him right now, it's over. Like, so I just, like, do a quick glance. And he keeps looking at me and I continue to look at the movie. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm just looking at him." And he like, dive — like not even like, you know, romantic way where like, we're both leaning in. He dives to me and, like, we kiss. And I'm like, "Oh my god, like, Sonic is literally, like, jumping through hoops like, like, I don't why —
Anita Rao
This person just smashed their face on mine. Yeah. Parys, how about you? What was your experience?
Parys Smith
Well, I unfortunately was an early bloomer. I remember being in pre-K. And this boy named Rahim, he was like a friend of mine in pre-K. And I didn't even have no feelings towards the boy. But we were on the playground. And he just came up to me and just smashed his face into my face. And it was very uncomfortable. He just walked away. And I was just standing there dumbfounded, and I was like, what is, what is going on? And ever since that situation, he just acted like it never happened. But I remember that day. I remember.
Anita Rao
We remember your first kiss. Okay, Chris, how about you?
Chris Williams
Alright, so I was 16. So it was just my girlfriend at the time. A couple weeks before we had been at a play with some of our friends at school, and so, like, I had tried. It was kind of like what Donna was saying was like, I was looking at her, but she wouldn't look at me. And so I was like, you know what, I'm not even gonna do that because I don't want to push anybody's limits. I don't want to do that. So then, one day we were at a birthday party and we were hugging and I was about to go home. And we were just standing there. And I was looking at her. And then I looked at my phone to see if I saw my mom was there, and I looked back up to tell her that and she just kissed me.
Anita Rao
Awww, how did you navigate it after that first one, Chris?
Chris Williams
After the first one, like, since that was my girlfriend, I knew it was kind of understood between us that like we could kiss, it was okay. But like with other people, it hasn't really been like that, because I actually haven't kissed anyone else besides her. It takes a lot for me to get that close, get that intimate with somebody. But my biggest fear is making somebody else uncomfortable and getting that reputation as: he doesn't respect people's boundaries. And it's like, it's a power dynamic since I'm the dude in the relationship. So it's like, I'd rather ask somebody first, or like, get actual verbal consent and know 100% that they're okay with that, than like, "Oh, I'm sorry, I did that."
Anita Rao
I appreciate that. And it's not the like coded language. Like I remember before my first make-out session, my high school boy — no, my middle school boyfriend aimed me like, "Make sure to brush your teeth" with an emoji. And I was like, that is so pathetic and that like such an indirect way of communicating something like that. So I'm all in for the direct communication. I really appreciate that. How do you talk about like, first kisses and intimacy? Is it something that you process with your friends and have support around?
Parys Smith
My friend group chat — Oh, my, oh my god, we be telling each other like, "Oh, guess what my partner did? Oh, he just kissed me" or like, "He gave me flowers." There's like little things we would tell each other. It's kind of like, we're rooting each other on from the sidelines, like, yeah, they're my cheerleaders. And I'm their cheerleader. So it's very supportive. Like I really trust them.
Anita Rao
Did y'all grow up in families where kissing was common? Like you saw your parents kiss? Or, like, had examples of kissing around you?
Parys Smith
Mm mm, no.
Anita Rao
Just something that wasn't ever on the table.
Parys Smith
Mmhmm.
Anita Rao
How about you, Donna?
Donna Diaz
Same as Parys, like, my family — it was very private. When my parents were together, I only saw them kiss, like, maybe once or twice. Or maybe in photos. My mom taught me that those type of moments and intimacy should be private. And so with my first partner when I told him that, I was like, "I don't like PDA, I don't like this." He felt like, "Oh, like, are you embarrassed by me? Like, why don't you want to kiss me in public?" And I'm like, "No, it's not it. It's just, I was raised a certain way where I don't feel comfortable kissing you in front of my friends or family." And like, my mom enforced that. I remember I invited my partner at the time to my house, and she told me, I don't want to see kissing, hugging, no touching.
Anita Rao
So it was like that her voice was in your head very much so.
Donna Diaz
Yeah.
Anita Rao
How about for you, Chris?
Chris Williams
My family — I feel like my parents, like, I couldn't count on one hand the number of times that I've seen them kiss. But when they did kiss, it's usually, either, like, a very special moment for them or it was, like, a joke, like, to make me and my sister say, "Ewwww." But then also the same thing where, even though they would kiss, like, they wouldn't go do that in the street. Like we're not gonna be in Walmart on the checkout line and they're just gonna start kissing because — Yeah, PDA to me was shown as, like, that's a little bit tacky. Like you don't need to do that in the street. And it's still, when I'm walking around, I see a couple on campus or something cuddling in the street, and I'm like, "Are you for real? I know that one of y'all has room."
Anita Rao
That's amazing. You have a room, you should just go there. So I mean, you all have had very different experiences, like, coming into this first kiss moment and then how you've kind of grown up thinking about kissing. But I'm curious about, like, how would y'all describe what makes a good kiss for you in this moment? I'll start with you, Chris.
Chris Williams
Hey, okay. I guess comfortability, like, not on the first go round — you don't need to be that — there doesn't need to be tongue and all that. Like, it could just be sweet for a couple of seconds the first time. And then, like, the same thing: It should be kind of private. It should definitely be private. Like I guess you just kind of have to match energy.
Donna Diaz
If it's heated in the moment, I guess go for it. But, like, if it's just, like, we just had a conversation and then it's happening, it shouldn't be like, right straight to it.
Parys Smith
It totally needs to be in private. It shouldn't be tongue. Please no, please no. Just take it slow. It's kind of like a — I guess a roller coaster. Shouldn't be guns blazing at first.
Anita Rao
No blazing guns. Noted. Honestly, what surprised me the most in this conversation was that they all seem much more reserved about kissing than most of the people I was around in high school and early college. I don't know what that means, if anything, but I'm gonna keep thinking about it, and I will report back. In the meantime, I'm planning to commit to kissing more. Something that reduces stress and gives you all the positive hormones? Count me. in If you want to jump on this train with me, I've got just the thing to set you up for success.
Kadar Small
The three things I think make a great kiss are chemistry, rhythm, because I've definitely have had chemistry with certain individuals, but they did not have rhythm. So the kissing experience was not great. And then touch. For me, like, I like having my hands on, like, their head, on their face, things of that nature. Just know like different comfort levels of touching.
Sheril Kirshenbaum
The three things that I think makes for a good test are one, preparation. If you want it to happen, take care of your personal hygiene. That second piece is about comfort — making sure that you understand what the other person might want, not putting any pressure on that partner or if you're feeling uncomfortable yourself, maybe putting on the brakes because it's not the right moment and your body isn't going to respond as as well as it could. And then third, one of the best parts about that first kiss is that dopamine kick, that craving and desire, and that rises with anticipation. So it's going to feel wonderful in the right circumstances.
Anita Rao
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. This episode was produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. Paige Perez is our new Embodied producer, Madison Speyer is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Quilla wrote our theme music.
Check out the show notes for a link to Kadar's gorgeous photos and Sheril's book.
Also, a huge thanks to everyone who shared their first kiss stories with us. If you have a story to share with us, thoughts about a recent episode, or ideas about a topic you want us to cover, leave us a message at our virtual mailbox: SpeakPipe. Find a link in our show notes.
Until next time, I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.