Anita Rao
I am a ruminator. If there's a thing to be stressed about or a problem to be solved, my brain will be on it — many hours a day. In the fall of 2017, I started to ruminate not just about my own problems, but my partner's. It happened after he was diagnosed with a sudden-onset vestibular disorder. That meant his sense of balance was totally off.
In the months after, he fell off his bike and cracked some ribs. He also confided in me that he was struggling to drive at night. My response? Panic — and then fleeting thoughts of disaster. For a month or so, every time he didn't arrive when he said he would, I'd assume the worst and be anxious until he reemerged. Eventually, I got him to turn on location sharing on his phone, so on occasion, I could reassure myself that he was, in fact, just running late.
For me, those moments were short-lived. But for some folks, their brains take worries — even about highly improbable things — to the extreme. Unwanted thoughts can result in compulsive behaviors that consume their day-to-day life and relationships.
This is Embodied, our show about sex, relationships and health. I'm Anita Rao.
If you've seen obsessive-compulsive disorder, or OCD, depicted on TV or film, it may have appeared to be something very visible — someone repeatedly washing their hands or rearranging books to align perfectly on a bookshelf. But that's a pretty narrow depiction of what the disorder looks like.
Dr. Monnica Williams
OCD is very often misdiagnosed. In fact, it's probably one of the most misdiagnosed mental health conditions because the symptoms can come out in so many different ways. What I tell clinicians is to not look so much at the way the symptoms look, but look at if the person is catastrophizing, if they're constantly worried about "what if" something really unlikely is going to happen. That really is more the hallmark of OCD.
Anita Rao
That's Dr. Monnica Williams. She's a licensed clinical psychologist in the U.S. and Canada and works as the clinical and training director at the Behavioral Wellness Clinic in Tolland, Connecticut. She has more than a decade of experience treating and studying OCD. If you ask her what causes the disorder, she'll describe the diathesis-stress model: a theory that explains how the interaction between genetic predispositions and stress can result in a mental health disorder.
Dr. Monnica Williams
Generally, what I tell people is it's not that they really did anything that caused it, it was, just really, kind of, waiting under the surface to erupt. Because everyone has stress and so, at some point, something's going to stress you out, and then that'll be an opportunity for it to emerge.
Anita Rao
That eruption moment typically occurs in childhood or early adulthood. For writer Mike Comforto, it happened right around the time that he and his wife, Nicole, had their first child.
Mike Comforto
It just felt like parental worry at the time. So I'd noticed a spot on my son's lip, and I went down a very deep hole in the internet to find out what it could be and emerged convinced that he was going to die of some very rare disease, right? I was, just, so terrified and did not know anything about how to take care of this little, you know, at that point four month old child that I, you know, I really was just trying to become as fast of an expert as I possibly could. So all of the research and everything, it felt very rational. You know, going back to your story, I thought that really resonated with me — this idea of, just, you're not sure. There's this uncertainty that this person is going to be okay. It feels justified, so I'm worrying to death. Everyone around me is recognizing this as, you know, just, sort of, new parent anxiety. But yes, the catastrophizing was very much there. And I — I was just completely despondent until the little dot went away, and I was able to go back to being somewhat normal.
Anita Rao
And it's so hard to know, in the moment, if, yeah — if what you're experiencing is, you know, a one-of-a-kind situation, or if this is something that is going to occur over and over. And you all did realize, kind of in retrospect, that over the course of the next two years, these types of things were happening on and off, and you didn't really know what was going on. You wondered if they could be panic attacks, but were kind of unsure. Nicole, talk to me about what you were seeing in Mike in these moments, and what that experience was like for you — when he was thinking that he was the only one that was taking these things really seriously.
Nicole Comforto
Oh, yeah, it was — it was very bewildering and somewhat terrifying, because Mike is a very smart and logical person who, just, knows a lot of things. And so when he started worrying, at first I thought, oh my gosh, maybe this is something to worry about. Maybe I need to learn more. You know, I've never heard of a baby dying after having a tiny red spot on their lip, but he's just spent a few hours researching it on the internet. And maybe he does know something I don't know. So there was definitely a side of me that was, just, wondering, well, maybe this is a problem we need to take seriously. But the problems that he feared never seemed — they just never materialized. You know, he would always, kind of, take it to the worst possible place, which was, you know, death of a member of our family, usually. And it didn't happen. And I didn't, really, actually think it was going to happen. So after a while, I realized the problem, you know, that that spot on our baby's lip, it was the first sign of something terrifying. But it wasn't an illness of our child, it was Mike's anxiety, or whatever it was, that we — it took us a long time to figure it out. That was the terrifying thing, was just how he was reacting.
Anita Rao
Over the next two or three years, Mike occasionally experienced these bouts of extreme worry and overwhelm, but he and Nicole did not understand why. They thought it might be panic attacks. Then Nicole got pregnant again, and things got worse. As Nicole wrote in a Modern Love essay about their experience, Mike's anxiety got more frequent and more powerful. And soon, it felt like their life was a matter of day-to-day survival. Mike saw several therapists, but nobody ever mentioned OCD — just general anxiety and fears about being a new parent. Finally, it was Nicole's therapist who suggested that Mike's behaviors could be linked to OCD. In that moment, things began to click into place, and Mike found a specialist.
Mike Comforto
That was absolutely mind-blowing. Because, you know, the descriptions I would give felt like new parent anxiety, and the therapist came back with answers of, no, no, that's — that's OCD. What you're describing is far beyond what normal parental anxiety is, because you are finding yourself trapped by it, and coming back to it, and turning it into these catastrophes. And yes, they are things that could go wrong — all of these various different things that you're worried about — but the level at which you are worrying about them and the way that it's impacting your life is a disorder.
Anita Rao
That's really helpful too, that you got that clarity, about what had been misdiagnosed as anxiety actually being OCD. And Nicole, I'm curious about what it was like for you to learn that and how that shaped how you were understanding what was going on?
Nicole Comforto
Oh, it was amazing. It was definitely a huge turning point when we got the tip that what Mike was experiencing might be OCD, because it had been affecting every aspect of our lives every day, multiple times a day. You know, it was affecting how we got ready in the morning, and his work, and what we ate, what we could bring into the house. And it often, especially, reared up in the evenings, like, after our toddler went to bed. And I was pregnant and very tired, and that's when Mike seemed to want the most, like, emotional support out of me. Because the rest of the day, you're just, sort of, dealing with logistics — one thing at a time as they come up. But that's when he just really wanted to sit down and talk about it, and I was exhausted, like, it was truly exhausting.
And I had just tried so many different things to figure out how to help him, but it was very confusing. And we'd never met or even heard of anybody experiencing this exact same thing. Things like, he was afraid to let us eat blueberries from our deck, and he was afraid to walk by some weeds in our neighborhood because there was some poison hemlock mixed in, and he wanted to come back and check and make sure the oven was off whenever we left the house for overnight. That sort of thing, just, it invaded every aspect of our lives. So when we got the tip that it was OCD, it was just this huge relief, because we immediately started reading up about OCD and got an appointment with a specialist. And it was like having a guidebook to Mike's disorder. Like we just suddenly understood that we weren't alone, and that there was a treatment plan and people who could help us. And everything after that just became easier and easier as we went through the treatment process.
Anita Rao
As Nicole mentioned, this large flare-up of Mike's OCD happened when she was pregnant with her second child in 2018. They knew they needed some stability before this new baby came home, so they gave themselves a deadline: make improvement in Mike's OCD management by the time their child was born. And he succeeded, thanks in large part to a type of therapy called exposure and response prevention. Although this treatment is the gold standard for OCD, it is not an easy or comfortable process.
Mike Comforto
Wow. Yeah, uncomfortable is a very good word for it. So I think one of the really interesting things about my particular OCD — in particular, when it came to my relationship with Nicole — is that one of the rituals that I had put together over time was reassurance. Promise me that this isn't going to happen, tell me that this is, you know, that this isn't a problem. Whatever the issue was, looking to someone else for reassurance. Which — Nicole talked a little bit before about this idea of one, me wanting to talk through the issues from the day at the end of the night, and that being just totally exhausting for her. Well, that turned into a ritual, I would ask over and over and over again.
And so, a big piece of the exposure response prevention, for me, was around dealing with the uncertainty, exposing myself to these things that I was worried about. Eating blueberries from a planter on our deck, or walking near plants that I thought were poisonous, or just coming in from outside without having to take my shoes off outside or clean them, things like that. A lot of sanitation and contamination. Do small versions of those things — something very small — and then not seek reassurance or not clean up afterwards, and just sit there and not do anything.
So one of the things about exposure response prevention is it's almost this ladder that you climb up, and you start with the lowest rung. The worst part is for it to be the most effective, you actually sit there, and you don't let yourself get distracted. You actually keep yourself focused on the anxiety because you're trying to live with that uncertainty and acknowledge it in your life. So you start — I started on the bottom rungs, and I worked my way up the ladder. I'd like to say that it was a nice, easy step up through the ladder of, just, not asking for reassurance and not doing any of those compulsions, but it was a rocky road. But I have to say it's the gold standard for a reason, at least for me, it was extremely effective. And the results were, I mean, it happened very quickly. It was pretty impressive.
Anita Rao
As I'm hearing you talk about that, I'm feeling so much for you. And I'm wondering, Nicole, I mean, to watch Mike go through this process of really having to sit in the uncomfortable for as long as he could and not turn to you for reassurance, how did you do that? What was the hardest part for you about recognizing your role, and then trying to, kind of, unlearn that behavior?
Nicole Comforto
I mean, to be perfectly honest, it was a huge relief for me. I mean, of course, it was hard to watch him go through this difficult treatment, but my role as a supporter was clear for the first time after years of just not knowing how to help him. And my role was supposed to be to let him — let him do it himself and not reassure him. And that is actually, kind of, what I had wanted to do all along. Because it was so exhausting for me, just, emotionally draining to be supporting him, and reassuring him and — and trying to learn about what he was afraid of, just enough to tell him, like, I think it's gonna be fine. And so, to be able to step back and, kind of, draw a boundary and say, "I'm not supposed to help you here," was actually a little bit of a relief. And I think it helped our relationship immensely, actually, once we were able to, kind of, separate my role of reassurance from his treatment. Because it, I — well, first of all, he got better so much faster, and it allowed us to keep our relationship more focused on the important things and the good things that it needed to be focused on.
Anita Rao
Mike, as Nicole mentioned, the therapy was really effective for you. But the thing about OCD is that just because you, kind of, worked your way through those particular fears, it doesn't mean that it won't manifest in other ways throughout your lifetime. So I'd love to know about some of the strategies you've developed for noticing and then responding to potential triggers as they emerge since that point — when you went through the process of really working through the specific ones that were troubling at that time.
Mike Comforto
Whenever things are in high stress or, you know, a big transition, like we just recently moved. It's very likely, and it did, come back up and resurge. And so, a lot of the strategies I've had have been mostly around recognizing that I never have to — I can never stop with the exposure response prevention. If something comes up, and I recognize that it is that pattern of obsession resurging, I have to make this choice of, do I use this almost like an exposure at the moment? Or do I save that energy for later because this isn't the right time?
And first of all, being able to identify that — that it's that and not just, you know, standard, you know, quotidian worry is — is difficult, but I think I've started to, sort of, sense the emotions that go around it a little bit. So that's been very helpful. And then, if I decide to make an exposure, I just, I'll tell Nicole sometimes. If she's around, would just be like, "Hey, just so you know, I'm trying to be okay with this. I'm trying to live with this uncertainty."
When that's not the case, because so much of my rituals and obsessions have to do with reassurance, I — I've set up this system with my therapist, which is to ask a reasonable person what they would do in that situation, and then follow that exactly. So normally, that's my mother — actually, my mother has been incredibly helpful throughout this entire experience. I'll call her, and I'll just ask her, "Mom, what is it that you would do given these circumstances?" And 99.9% of the time, her answer is, "Nothing." And so then, I have to do nothing. And then, it turns into, sort of, a mini exposure. And keeping to that has meant that it doesn't resurge. It sort of keeps it at this low level that's — most of the time, so low I don't even notice it.
Anita Rao
There are many subtypes of OCD, but they all function in a pretty similar way. Persistent and intrusive thoughts trigger anxiety, which leads to compulsive behaviors that give temporary relief until the cycle starts all over again. No matter what someone's particular thoughts or behaviors are, they can and will affect their relationships. For some folks, the theme of the obsessive thoughts themselves is the relationship or sex. Here's psychologist Dr. Williams.
Dr. Monnica Williams
Sexual obsessions in OCD are fairly common, and there's a lot of shame and stigma attached to these symptoms. Because oftentimes, the person with that form of OCD, they don't even know that it's OCD. Or if they do, they can pretty much anticipate that other people aren't going to understand it and may think that they have some different sort of problem. And so, a lot of people are not getting treated for this type of OCD, even though they should be. And then, it will tend to get worse over time without treatment. One fairly common obsession that we see sometimes is women who are very afraid that they're going to get pregnant. And they may be using, you know, pretty standard, effective means of contraception, but the OCD says, "Well, what if? What if, you know, something happens? What if you didn't take your pill at the right time? What if there's a hole in the condom?" So they may take extreme measures to make sure they don't get pregnant, they may use four or five different forms of birth control, they may be taking pregnancy tests every day, they may decide not to have sex anymore because they're just too afraid. And so, you can imagine their partners are not happy with the state of their sex life because the OCD has gotten in the way of actually having, you know, an enjoyable, natural experience that's, you know, intended to bring two people together.
Anita Rao
Just like for other types of OCD, the therapy process for intrusive thoughts about sex and relationships requires facing the discomfort head on. This is what OCD advocate Alexandra Reynolds told us.
Alexandra Reynolds
I remember being a very little girl and having OCD latch on to my younger brother. Because my brother and I were basically best friends growing up, and we still are, it made me feel that my little brother didn't love me, that he actually secretly hated me, that he secretly wanted me to go away. Which, as my OCD got more severe as I grew up, really became a problem. OCD would, kind of, come in as soon as I was getting close to somebody, and I would become avoidant of them. I would start to doubt their love for me, or how much they cared about me, and that would result in me, sort of, self-sabotaging the relationship. In my marriage now, OCD has showed up in so many different ways. Not only in avoiding my partner, but also in feeling that maybe I'm not the right one for my partner, or that he is not the right one for me. The biggest exposure for me was getting engaged and getting married. I think that if you lean into that uncertainty and can allow all of those doubts to exist while still pursuing a relationship — intimate or otherwise — because that relationship still brings you joy or value in some way, then you can begin to take that power back from OCD, even in your relationships.
Anita Rao
Alexandra started experiencing OCD symptoms as a young girl, and even then she noticed just how much they affected her relationships. Writer and journalist H.T. went through the same thing. And just FYI, we're using her initials for personal and medical privacy.
H.T.
My earliest memory of dealing with what I now in hindsight know to be OCD was when I was in kindergarten. And I remember learning to write, and I have this specific memory of doing homework at a desk in our living room at the time. And I was trying to trace a letter, and I remember erasing it and redoing it, and erasing it and redoing it, over and over and over. And at the time, I guess it might seem normal because I was learning to write, but I feel like there was definitely something off about this perfection at such an early age. And just, feeling like I had to get it just right before I could move on.
Anita Rao
So you said, you know, what now, in retrospect, you understand as OCD. So for a long time, you didn't have a mental health diagnosis. I'm curious, before you had the words to describe what you were going through, how you saw these behaviors affecting your relationships with your family and friends as a kid and as you grew up.
H.T.
A lot of my OCD revolves around catastrophic things happening to loved ones. So I would think about my mom, or my dad, or my younger brothers, you know, dying in a fire, or getting injured or maimed in a really bad accident. And that was triggered by a classmate of mine dying in a fire the summer between third and fourth grade. And that was the first time I had known anyone who had died, and that really, kind of, sank in for me that death is real, there's nothing I can do to prevent it. And that just really set off a huge wave of anxiety. And so I started developing these rituals where I would just pray countless times at night for everyone I could think of, that way they would survive. And even though I wasn't religious, and I recognized, objectively, that this was kind of ridiculous because I had no sway over whether someone lived or died, I just felt such this deep-seated panic otherwise — that I just felt like I had to do it. And this was a ritual that continued on for years and years where every single night, I would spend, just — I don't even know, maybe a half hour, maybe even longer — just praying for everyone I could think of. And it was something that just had such a strong hold on me.
Anita Rao
This can often be such a private experience for folks, especially those who are experiencing compulsions that are internal and not as obvious to people as, you know, washing your hands or arranging something. Was this something that the folks around you were aware of, or was it something that you were really going through on your own?
H.T.
No, no one around me was aware of this. It was something I totally kept to myself because I didn't realize that it was a disorder. I just thought it was maybe some sort of just really weird, extreme quirk. And because of that, I was really embarrassed to talk about it with other people. So I definitely suffered with this alone.
Anita Rao
H.T. was eventually diagnosed with OCD in her first semester of college. And her treatment journey has been long. As she would say, name a type of therapy and she's probably tried it. At first H.T. was put on medication, which she says kind of saved her life. Dr. Williams, a psychologist you've been hearing from throughout this episode, said that treatment for people with OCD often starts with medication because it's fairly easy for doctors to prescribe. While meds mostly dull the symptoms, therapy is a more lasting approach. H.T. did go through both talk therapy and exposure and response prevention — the same type of treatment Mike did. At one particularly difficult point, when she was struggling with suicidal ideations, she spent time in a psychiatric ward. Now she's not experiencing any symptoms flare ups. She still takes medication and attends weekly talk therapy. And throughout this 12 year journey, she's gotten more comfortable talking about OCD and seeking support from friends and family.
H.T.
I am not ashamed to talk about my OCD diagnosis because I think, for a lot of people, it challenges what OCD looks like. When I tell people that I have OCD, they're oftentimes surprised because they, you know, have this idea of OCD being like, "Oh, I just like to arrange my things a certain way," or "Oh, like, this has to be facing outward." And when they see that it's something I have and that I've been diagnosed with, they see that there are many different faces to what OCD looks like, and that someone can be relatively high-functioning with OCD.
So I think, just, really having my friends be there to support me, and knowing that they cannot always solve the problem, but that just having an ear can be really helpful. That has been a huge thing for me. And it's been really interesting, the evolution of this diagnosis and the aftermath with my parents in particular. My parents were immigrants from West Africa, and I will say that their approach to mental illness was not ideal at first. My mom, at one point, tried to host an exorcism for me. And yeah, it was it was very intense. But I think that was her way of, just, acknowledging that she was really scared, and that she had never encountered this before, and she didn't know how to help me feel better.
But I think, just, over the years, having my parents see that this is a legitimate illness, this is not something that can go away from me just trying harder, and that I have spent many years in various programs, and trying to live a relatively normal life while fighting this, I think my parents have come around. They've been much more supportive. My parents understand that I need to take medication in order to combat the symptoms, and they realize that I'm not possessed. That it's, just, it's something with my brain chemistry. So I think over time, the people in my life have come to understand.
Anita Rao
I know that you are not in a partnership right now, but I'm curious about how OCD has shaped your dating and relationship life. Is it something that you bring up? How does it shape the way that you start relationships?
H.T.
So one thing I do worry about when I date is at what point I should bring up my OCD diagnosis, because I think it is an important thing to know about me — if someone is going to get to know me — because it shapes a lot of the thoughts I have. It shapes a lot of my outlook on life. So I have had to, kind of, strike a delicate balance whether it's even worth it to tell this person, if this isn't someone I anticipate getting to know for a long time. I used to tell people on the first date and then wonder why they would never reach back out. And I think because, maybe, it was a little bit too daunting, or too intimidating, or just too much information at that point of getting to know them. So I have to, kind of, strike a balance and let them know this is something that has touched every part of my life. It's part of why it took me so long to graduate from undergrad, it's part of why a lot of things in my life didn't happen when I wanted them to, because I had to carve out so much time to tackle this illness. So when it comes to dating, I definitely have to try to strike a delicate balance of letting this person know because I want to be honest, and it's not something I'm ashamed of. But also, phrasing it in a way that does not overwhelm the person that I'm notifying.
Anita Rao
Trying to figure out how to best support someone with OCD can definitely be challenging. And as a result, many people struggle for a long time before finding support. Recent studies indicate that it can take up to 17 years from the start of symptoms to getting suitable therapy. Some things that could help, according to Dr. Williams, are better representation of OCD in the media, more education for mental health professionals and more resources for family members to support loved ones with OCD.
Dr. Monnica Williams
We know that it's not helpful for family members to participate in the compulsions, but it's also not helpful for family members to berate, or criticize, or ridicule the person with OCD. So generally the way family members and partners can be supportive is to not participate in the OCD, but if they see the person is struggling, or if the person is asking them for help with their OCD, they can say things like, "Oh, I know this is hard, but I'm sure you can beat this. You know, I'm sorry you're struggling." What I'll tell family members to do sometimes, if they're really frustrated is I'll say, "Look, if you're frustrated, just call me and vent to me. But don't take it out on your loved one, because that's just going to make it more stressful for them." And the treatment is challenging, and if they're too stressed out, they're not even going to be able to engage in the treatment.
Anita Rao
So, Mike, you mentioned your mom being a big support for you and being someone that you call in moments now when you're noticing some distressing thoughts. I'm curious about what it has been like for you all to talk with the rest of your family members about OCD and how they've processed it.
Mike Comforto
Yeah, I think I am extremely lucky in the sense that I've had a lot of familial support. To the point where I actually feel very comfortable talking about a lot of these issues — being on, you know, radio shows and podcasts, for instance — to help talk about this and destigmatize it as much as I possibly can. I don't think I would have been able to make it through any of this without a lot of that support. As it was, it was a very difficult journey, and was very difficult to find the right therapy. And thanks to the people in my life, I was able to have the space to go pursue that.
Anita Rao
I know that at the very end of the Modern Love essay, Nicole, you nod to the fact that OCD does run in families. And I'd love to know how you and Mike plan to talk about OCD with your children, and what — if anything — you're thinking about parenting if your kid does also have OCD?
Nicole Comforto
Well, we are definitely very open about Mike's experience and telling our kids, in ways that they are able to understand at their ages, what happens and — and why Daddy sometimes needs to go in another room and call another family member. And then, in general, I think we're just — we just know so much more about it now that I hope we could see the signs and connect our kids with the right resources should they ever need them. I don't know that we'll get it just right or that they'll share everything with us, but we will certainly be available and be more knowledgeable because of our experience.
Anita Rao
H.T., I'd love to end with you asking for any advice or perspective you may have from your experience being someone that, for a long time, kept what was going on with you really private and was feeling shame and discomfort about some of the thoughts that you were having. What would you share to people who may be experiencing this and feeling like that's a big barrier to getting help?
H.T.
I feel the shame almost helps to feed the illness. I feel like the shame almost compounds it because you stay so, kind of, to yourself. And it becomes really hard to distinguish between what is an irrational thought and what is a thought that makes sense. So I think for me, I kind of just got to a point where I had just had enough of the shame, and I realized that I needed to speak to someone, otherwise this illness was going to kill me. So I know it's much, much, much easier said than done, as someone who has been fighting this illness in therapy for over a decade, but a medical professional is really not there to judge you. And that was something I learned pretty quickly. I had just gotten tired of the shame that I had felt around it and realized I needed to speak to someone. And fortunately, I was able to get a diagnosis that made sense, and I am forever grateful for the people in my life who helped me realize — okay, they didn't know I had OCD, but they knew that something was not right. And that helped lead me to treatment.
Anita Rao
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast and WUNC's other shows on demand, consider a contribution at wunc.org now. Incredible storytelling like you hear on Embodied is only possible because of listeners like you.
In case you missed the news, Embodied the radio show is growing. You have more opportunities now to listen to us on the airwaves. In addition to Blue Ridge Public Radio in Asheville, we're also now picked up by News 88.7 in Houston. If you're in the Houston area, you can find us on your dial every Sunday evening at 8 p.m.
This episode is produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. Paige Perez is our new Embodied producer, Madison Speyer is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Quilla wrote our theme music.
Check out our show notes for some resources on how to find an OCD specialist and to read Nicole's beautiful essay in Modern Love.
If you have a story to share with us, thoughts about a recent episode or ideas about a topic you want us to cover, leave us a message at our virtual mailbox: SpeakPipe. Find a link in our show notes. Here's something we heard about our recent episode about being child-free.
Kelly
Hi Anita and the Embodied team. My name is Kelly, and I live in Washington D.C., and I want to thank you for your podcast about child-free by choice. As someone who falls into this category, I'm always happy to see podcasts, media, postings, that are raising awareness about this issue. I think this is an even more difficult issue for women who choose to be both single and child-free, so I do think that would be an interesting topic to talk about on a future episode.
Anita Rao
Thanks so much that listener and all of you who support Embodied. Until next time, I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.