Anita Rao
I remember when he told me. It was at the tail end of our second date, hours into one of those early get-to-know-you conversations. He mentioned that he had moderately severe hearing loss in one of his ears, something that happened suddenly in college after recovering from a bad cold. He tried hearing aids once, but hated the experience and never went back.
As the months passed by, I noticed the many ways he learned to adjust: always walking on my left side, sometimes curving the back of his other ear forward to hear people better. I started to adjust too, curbing my childhood habit of yelling to someone on the other side of the house to get their attention, and being mindful of what seat I take up at a restaurant.
But it hasn't been until recently, as we're planning for a shared life many decades into the future, that we've been talking more openly about how his hearing loss informs all of his relationships, including ours. For us, navigating this moving forward is going to require vulnerability, and sometimes uncomfortable conversations.
This is Embodied, our show about sex, relationships and your health. I'm Anita Rao.
One of those hard conversations on the table: should he try hearing aids again, and how can I best support him if that's the route he chooses? For the uninitiated, hearing aids may seem like a silver bullet — the equivalent of a volume knob you can just turn up — but adjusting to them is not so linear.
Caela Daly
I had my first pair when I was 10 years old, and they were bright orange.
Harlan Kebel
I can still remember though, when I first put the hearing aid in, there was a tremendous difference in what I could hear.
Caela Daly
Just giving a person hearing aids doesn't mean that they're actually going to hear. It's really hard to learn sound. I was really surprised with, like, the refrigerator or dishwasher. I had to start being cognitive of where I was positioning myself. So at restaurants, I would have to make sure that I was sitting behind all the background noise, because hearing aids do pick up sound, but they pick up all of the sound. So it's much harder for your brain to differentiate.
Harlan Kebel
They're quite a technological advance, and they're rechargeable and they work through an app on an iPhone, where you can fine tune the volume and the tone and timbre, which sounded great to start with. It's really not all that great, though.
Caela Daly
Because I was born deaf and then moved to severe hearing loss, I definitely had a harder time being exhausted of hearing sound during the day. And even now, I don't like my hearing aids. I would prefer to live in silence and lip read.
Harlan Kebel
And sometimes it's very difficult to use. Some people's voice, it sounds like breaking glass. And I have to turn the hearing aids off or turn them down, because it's very distracting.
Anna Pulley
There is an incredible adjustment period. Eating chips becomes this, like, World War II scene in your mouth, and a lot of people don't tell you that you have to just push through that.
Anita Rao
That was Caela Daly, Harlan Kebel — and that last voice you heard is writer Anna Pulley. She's the author of "The Lesbian Sex Haiku Book (with Cats)" and the "Love Where You Work" series. Deafness runs in Anna's family. She first noticed her own hearing loss when she was 9. Her brother and his friend were talking about something, and she heard it wrong. After that, they mocked her incessantly, but it wasn't until Anna was 20 and getting her pilot's license that she started to confront the scope of her hearing loss. The decade that followed is what she now calls her "adventures in deafness" — the sometimes humorous, sometimes harrowing situations she encounters as a hard of hearing person, and the various strategies she's developed to cope.
Anna Pulley
There was a lot of guessing on my end, there was a lot of just, kind of, winging it. And I think it, kind of, formed a bad habit because I still do that a lot today. There's a lot of nodding, thoughtful nodding, as if I'm following along when I have no idea what's going on in the conversation. And this has led to a number of really funny situations, but also some actually potentially scary ones. There was one where I was at a bar and this man asked me if he could come home with me, and I must have nodded at the wrong time because when I got in a cab by myself, he followed me. It was very — it took about 20 minutes before we were able to finally understand each other and what was going on, but that was, like, the worst case of nodding leading something that I really didn't want to happen.
Anita Rao
So did those moments lead to disclosure or a conversation? Or up until that point, when you first got your hearing aid, were you not really identifying as someone with hearing loss?
Anna Pulley
There was, kind of, a family joke about it, you know, that I was deaf, but nothing was really done to address it. It was, kind of, like, "You're doing fine, you know, you're getting by." And right, it was only till I was up in a plane, and my life depended on hearing that I was like, "I can't do this anymore." And I had my my pilot's license test, and I actually misheard the tower during the test and almost landed on the wrong runway and remarkably still passed. I don't know how, I mean, I had technical ability, so that was probably what did it, but I never got in a plane after that. I was like, "Things have to change." And that's when I really started to take it seriously. I started taking ASL. I started, you know, I really tried with the hearing aids. There is an incredible adjustment period where, you know, your hearing gets worse. You can't hear anything, everything is so loud. It takes your brain at least a month before it starts to recognize those new sounds that are being processed.
Anita Rao
So in your first 10 years you went through four different hearing aids, and for a while you only actually were able to afford one hearing aid at a time because hearing aids are so expensive. So talk to me about that, and, kind of, how the access shaped your experience.
Anna Pulley
Yes, yes, that is a big problem with hearing aids, they are sometimes up to $7,000. And in all my years having insurance, they've never been covered well, so it's an incredible expense. And also, they don't last very long. They last, like, three to five years if you're really lucky. So the first hearing aids I tried, I sent them back because I wasn't ready, I think, to deal with the stigma. I wasn't ready to deal with that process. And then, when I became a teacher, I was like, "Okay, it's really important for me to be able to hear my students." And so, I submitted an — I think it was an essay and, like, a financial aid application because I was not making any money. I was working for AmeriCorps and making 10 grand a year, so I could not afford $7,000 hearing aids. And they approved me for one. They were like, "Here, you can have one hearing aid," and I needed two. But I was like, I'll take it, so I tried again. And everything was louder, but nothing made sense, so that hearing aid went in a drawer.
About two years after that, I got a better job that had insurance, and so I could afford it. And that's when I got my second hearing aid and tried that one again. And once again, just like, couldn't adjust, couldn't get used to it, until I read this really fantastic book by Katherine Bouton called "Shouting Won't Help." And she really details all the processes that are involved in adjusting to hearing aids, and that was when I finally was like, "Okay, I'm gonna really do it this time." And I got my hearing aids through Costco — I still get my hearing aids through Costco, which I find so funny. It's just, like, a big box store is subsidizing my health. But their hearing aids are less than two grand, and they are top of the line. They're really good. So you know, for better or for worse, that's who's become my defacto health provider when it comes to hearing. I think I was, like, 33 when I finally did that, so that's, like, a 13 year difference of suffering. And I was very much like, "Okay, this is going to fix me, like, I'm going to be able to hear people again." And I think that does happen in rare cases, but for most people, it's such a complex process, the way our brains interpret sounds — especially with words and conversations. And so, yeah, I was really hoping that they would help a lot more than they do. The hearing tech at Costco was like, "It's better than nothing." And I really took that to heart. At first it was a depressing thing to hear, but then after I thought about it, I was like, "You know what, you're right. If I can hear 20% better then I can hear 20% better, and that is going to help tremendously in the long run."
Anita Rao
As Anna was experimenting with her hearing aids and exploring her own sexuality in her 20s, she also started to write a weekly sex and advice column. She became very aware of what cultural conversations were brewing about sex and what wasn't being talked about — like how to navigate communication around sex when you're deaf or hard of hearing.
Anna Pulley
I had so many questions and no one was talking about it, I think because we assume everyone who has hearing loss is, like, our grandmother or great grandmother, and we're uncomfortable thinking about elderly people having sex — which is a little silly. But yes, I was poring through the books, I was asking my doctors, I was looking through all the literature and not finding anything. So I realized that I had to make it myself. So some of the questions I had were one, like, "Can I even wear hearing aids during sex?" Because you're not supposed to get them wet, and you know, sometimes it's a very sweaty endeavor. So they were like, "Don't wear them, don't wear them during sex." And I ignored that advice, because I would much rather be able to understand my partner. And so, far they haven't broken, so fingers crossed. I was really trying to figure out how to make this work because I am a person who writes about sex, I really enjoy sex. I think that's a very, you know, important part of relationships and intimacy. So I ended up writing an essay where I interviewed, I think, like, six or eight people who had hearing loss on like, what they were doing. And it was it was really heartening to hear, one, the mess-ups. And two, just, like, the ways that they coped. And some were like, "You know what, it's a godsend, because I'm not distracted. I am completely focused on my partner. I don't care if there was a garbage truck rolling by, I don't care if there was, like, a lightning storm, like, it doesn't matter, I — because I can't hear it, I am going to be focused on my partner." It's like, yes, that's so true. I didn't even realize it until I heard it from someone else.
Anita Rao
I'd love to talk a bit about the identity piece. I mentioned that you're an avid writer and essayist, and you wrote an essay about the intersection of your queer identity and your deafness. And you said, a line that said, "Being deaf is like coming out as queer. It doesn't happen just once, it happens over and over again, sometimes multiple times a day." So I'd love to talk — hear you talk a little bit more about that, and this feeling of coming out and how these intersections have overlapped for you.
Anna Pulley
Yes, absolutely. I think it's really, it's really true. When you have hearing loss, when you have a limitation, and you need help, it's something that you have to, just, be really vocal about. And I'm not the greatest at this. I actually — in my last job, we had these all hands meetings, and there were 300 people in the company. If you didn't get there really early, you might be sitting way far at the back. And so, I couldn't hear the speaker or what was going on. So I asked HR if I could have a Post-It, you know, on a chair in the front, so that I could hear. And I thought that was a very reasonable request, and I was told no. And so, you know, after you hear that over and over again, you kind of stop asking for help, which is really — it's hard. It's hard. So I've had to be very vocal, I've had to insist on how to really, kind of, tell people over and over again. Every coworker that I meet who doesn't know, every, like, barista at Starbucks. This is especially true in the pandemic where everyone was wearing masks, and I just could not — I could hear 0% of things that were going on. And Vika would have to translate for me — my partner — she was a lifeline. She was such a lifeline to that, but I sort of have an in-between identity. Like, I don't totally fit in in the deaf community, I don't totally fit in in the hearing community. And so, I think my queerness has actually really helped me come to terms with that and accept that part of me.
Anita Rao
You just heard Anna mentioned her partner, Vika. Vika Mass is actually her fiancee. They've been together for more than two years. And ... well, I'm actually going to let Vika tell the story.
Vika Mass
So, we did meet at the beginning of the pandemic. And like a lot of people, I thought that this was going to last a month, maybe two. And so I'm like, "Okay, let me go online, meet some people, schedule some drink dates after we're allowed to venture out into the world again." And I stumbled on to Anna's profile, and we matched. And she reached out to me, and we were initially texting one another. And then, she asked for a video date. And I kind of freaked out a little bit. I was like, "Is this what — is this what the kids are doing now?" You know, this was before Zoom was the norm. And, you know, I'm used to being, like, going out with people, so if the date's not going well, there's a distraction. You can look around you, and that wasn't gonna happen. So I kind of freaked out a little bit, but it was wonderful. And it wasn't until later that I realized that part of the video date wasn't just because it was a pandemic, but she can see my face, and we can communicate that way.
Anita Rao
So Anna, you waited a little bit into the relationship — about five weeks — to talk to Vika about your hearing loss. I'm curious about what ultimately led you to telling her and — and how you approach that kind of conversation.
Anna Pulley
Yes, I try to tell people right away. Because, you know, when you're meeting in person, you're usually, what, in a bar, it's loud. There's a lot of potential distractions. And so, I tend to mishear. And people give me funny looks like, "Why — like, we're not talking about peanuts. Like, why did you just say that?" And so, I like to tell people, like, "If I mishear you, and you're, like, we're not talking about whatever it is you just said, that's why." So I am trying to circumvent and avoid those, kind of, awkward conversations. But with Vika, I actually waited a really long time. And part of it was fear, you know, I was so into her. And I was like, "Oh, I don't want, you know, any potential thing to come between us." But also because we had these video dates, and they were wonderful. She was always looking right at my face. The lighting was good, like, there were no background noises and if worst comes to worst, there's, like, captioning devices that help. So yeah, I waited a long time. But right before we were slated to meet, I was like, "Okay, I have to tell her." And like, worked myself up for it, and she was like, "Oh, yeah, cool. That's fine. Like, no biggie." I was like, "Oh, phew."
Anita Rao
Perfect reaction. Well, how did you — I mean, so Vika, once you knew, what were some of the changes you made in terms of how you communicate? What did you become aware of in your relationship?
Vika Mass
So once we met in person, and we started our relationship face to face, that's what it really needed to be — face to face. You know, when we were getting to know one another online, that's very easy to do. But as you're out and about in the world, as you're just engaging with the world, you're not always looking at the person when you're speaking. And now it's become, just, a habit for me, it's my new normal. But initially, it was definitely an adjustment that I would say something, and I would realize, "Oh, she didn't catch that. I have to turn around and make sure that she's looking at me, and that she can see my mouth when I speak."
Anita Rao
I know that one of the things that I have struggled with my partner who is hard of hearing is figuring out how to navigate social environments with multiple people, and how much of a role to play, like, in positioning myself, or positioning other people, or telling other people what's going on. I'm curious about how the two of you navigate — have navigated that and what feels most comfortable.
Anna Pulley
Yes, that is a real struggle, and Vika has been wonderful about making sure that I feel included. She's so good at it too. It's like, she won't just repeat what the person says. She's kind of like — she, kind of, addresses me and, like, frames the question in a way as if, maybe I already heard it. But she's just, kind of, reiterating the point. And that's, I was like, damn, that's good, like, she is good. And she's, I think partially this is from — I don't know if you wanted to talk about your grandmother and having to translate for her as a child.
Vika Mass
So my family is originally from the former Soviet Union. I was born in the U.S., and so for most of my childhood, it was just normal to be the translator for my grandmother — who never really learned English. And, you know, what really surprises me about this experience is it's very similar to when someone doesn't speak a language. And so, having to serve as that translator, understanding the social situation, making sure that the person that you're with has the context that they need in order to respond or act, and it's uncanny how similar the experiences are.
Anita Rao
I love that parallel. And I've got to tell y'all a little behind the scenes thing here, which is that unlike a lot of our Embodied interviews — which are only audio — Vika, Anna and I could also all see each other on Zoom. And they just had true heart eyes for each other. It was so lovely to witness the tenderness and care in their connection. Also, they're hilarious and share a great sense of humor about their relationship and their sex life as an interabled couple.
Anna Pulley
The funniest story for me was pretty early on in our relationship. And Vika had come up behind me, she put her arms around me — very sweet. She whispered in my ear, "I want to taste you." And I turned around with a panicked look on my face, and I was like, "Test me in what? Like, I haven't studied, I don't know what's going on." And then, she was like, "No, no, no, no, no." So we have this really funny like, oh yeah, you can't whisper sweet nothings into my ear, I'm so sorry. I mean, you can, but, like, I'm not going to know what you said, so you're gonna have to look at me in the face to do that.
Vika Mass
And it took me a while to get brave enough to say it. I'm like, "Okay, I want to surprise her. I want to do something unexpected. It's going to be sexy, I'm not sure how she'll receive this." And then, she turns around and the look on her face of, just, this horror. I'm like, "What happened?" And then, I realized she was like, "Test me in what?" I'm like, "No, no, I'm not testing you in anything." Not the response that I expected at all.
Anita Rao
Exactly, exactly. It didn't move into the mood that you were hoping it would in that moment. So you are — one of the things that I know, Anna, that you have done to help with communication in that environment is to make sure that the lights are on when you're having sex. Which, I know, could be a transition for people who aren't used to always having sex with the lights on. Anna, have you all developed any other, I guess, ways of communicating that are not verbal that have also helped in those situations?
Anna Pulley
Yeah, we do. We have codes, we tap each other. We — we know each other really well now. So you — you're much more tuned into nonverbal cues, and that's something I think actually hearing loss has really helped with. For me, you know, I have to position myself in a certain way so that when I'm performing cunnilingus, that the hearing aids don't shriek horribly, which is, just, a real mood killer.
Anita Rao
Because yeah, they can, like — it can cause a lot of feedback if there is, like, pressure against it.
Anna Pulley
Yeah, so sometimes, if you hug, like, and you have pressure, it does that, and the thighs are a great buffer for producing that sound, if anyone's curious.
Anita Rao
So, as you all have been, I guess, navigating this, there's obviously a lot of humor and fun and play. And it seems like you all have a great sense of humor that you take it all with, but I'm guessing there also, maybe, can be other emotions. Maybe frustration or difficulty when you don't feel understood, Anna or Vika, you might lose patience. I'm curious about how you all have navigated those parts of it — the slightly less fun pieces — maybe, Vika, let's start with you,
Vika Mass
You know, early on in our relationship, we were going to sleep, and it was raining and the sound of rushing water was, just, really lovely. And I just made the comment, "Oh, it's starting to rain." And Anna didn't hear me, and I said, "Well, that's okay. No big deal, forget it." And she got so upset with me, and the look on her face just dropped. And I'm like, "No, I was just making a comment about rain." And I didn't realize that regardless of the comment, how insignificant it may have been, for her, she felt isolated. She felt that I didn't make an effort to ensure that she understood me even though it was something so small. You know, and I think that was, kind of, my first understanding about how emotional this can be and how potentially isolating it can be. You know, regardless of how small the statement is. So it's really not just about content, it's about making sure that you're connecting and communicating and that you have that. It was quite shocking. I was, of course, was very upset because I did not want to upset her. And it was a real lesson learned for me about, wow, there's a lot of sensitivity here that I just wasn't aware of.
Anita Rao
Oh, yeah. And that's really beautifully said. And I know, Anna, that's something you've reflected on in a lot of your essays, how it is — you know, it's not just about the words that are said, but it's about the relationship that forms because of those words and how that leads to intimacy. And when that feels ruptured or broken, it can be really hurtful.
Anna Pulley
Absolutely, yes, it's — hearing loss is very lonely. That's probably one of the biggest things that — that's been the hardest to accept. There's just — there's a lot that I'm not going to catch. There's a lot that I'm not going to be a part of. And when you see everyone around you laughing at a joke that you didn't hear, or, you know, whispering about gossip that you didn't catch, it can be so lonely. And just, really, those days are the hardest, for sure. And now so, Vika has two kids, and I'm around them all the time, obviously. And I really am struggling to hear them a lot of the time too. And I just feel like, oh man, this is — this is such a challenge. And I'm really hard on myself about it, and Vika's so sweet. She usually tells me what happens afterwards. Or in some cases, you know, she's like, "Oh, don't worry, like, Gregory was just talking about Pokemon characters. Like, those aren't real words, like, you're not missing — like a Charmander is not a real thing." So she's been really great and instrumental in me not feeling left out, and I appreciate that so much.
Elie Gardner
My name is Elie, and I live in Norway with my husband and almost 2-year-old son. My son has used hearing aids since he was about two and a half months old. When he first got his hearing aids, I remember it was such a struggle to keep them on. The day he got his hearing aids, my husband and I managed to lose one of them in the hallway on our way out the door. While it was practically hard to keep the hearing aids in place, it was emotionally even harder to know what was best for my son. When he was younger, sometimes he cried or resisted when we would try to put on his hearing aids. We didn't know whether we should trust him when he seemed to say no to the hearing aids, or the audiologists who emphasize the importance of giving him as much access to sound as possible if we wanted him to speak. We learned about other ways that we could help our son too. Keep the room well that talk one at a time. Keep tall things off the center of the table at mealtime. As I reflect on how hearing aids may have affected my relationship with my son, I realize that I make talk to him more when he has his hearing aids on. I wonder if this comes from my own desire to be heard. Earlier, when there was so much uncertainty around what my son could hear or not hear, we started exploring other ways to communicate, primarily through sign language, gestures and facial expressions. So while I may talk to my son more when his hearing aids are on, I don't stop communicating with him when they are not.
Anita Rao
Like Elie said, hearing aids are just one of the communication tools available for those who have some form of hearing loss. There's also sign language, lip reading and cochlear implants. The ways we communicate and what tools we use are shaped by the cultures we're steeped in. This is something that Yat Li knows very well. Yat is deaf without hearing aids and hard of hearing with them. His hearing loss stems from a congenital condition called microtia, which means his ears didn't fully develop in utero. Doctors told him the structures in his inner ear were functional, but without an outer ear and connecting ear canal, he really struggled to hear. On top of that, he experienced a lot of ableism.
Yat Li
Culturally, it was really difficult for me, as a child born in Hong Kong — in an Asian country back in the late 80s and early 90s. Growing up, I always attached disability to shame and to guilt. And the reason I felt that was because of the area I grew up in, and the lack of understanding of inclusion at the time — in Asia, and even in Hong Kong. So my family had, you know, had the idea, hey, let's move over to another country. Perhaps there may be better education, there may be better — an opportunity for me to grow up. So we moved to a place called Vancouver out in British Columbia in Canada. And that's where I grew up, and it was a challenge to be honest because I didn't speak English. I didn't speak my mother tongue, Cantonese. So it was really hard, especially for a person who couldn't hear.
Anita Rao
So growing up before age 5, you had, kind of, hearing aids that were strapped on to you that you wore with, like, an elastic band. And once you moved to Canada, you had a surgery where you got bone anchored hearing aids. So talk to me about that adjustment process and how that shaped your experience of hearing.
Yat Li
You know, while the headband was good — it provided me with an element of hearing that I otherwise wouldn't have — it was a very much of a visual distraction for myself and for others. Which meant making friends and being on the spotlight a bit more, especially when the challenge is still developing my self confidence and self esteem. So that was very challenging. And hearing wasn't really good because the headband would conduct hearing through a device, and then through my skin, and then through my bone, and into my — my head. So there were several layers before a sound could be traveled into my head so I could hear. The bone anchored surgery really allowed me to hear exponentially better. But it was a real big process because, not only because of the surgery, but also relearning what hearing is. I remember, when I was first activated with the bone anchored hearing device, we were at a restaurant. And I was like, "Hey, Dad, what's all this, like, clanging and what's all these, like, sound of light, wind or whatever it is?" I couldn't comprehend because it was so much information in my head that I've never heard before. So he was like, "Son, this is the dishes clanging at each other. These are the wind, these are the leaves rustling." And I'm like, "Oh, okay, I guess I hear a lot of annoying sounds now." So, yeah.
Anita Rao
You were hearing sounds that you hadn't heard before, and your brain was making sense of them. And as we've been talking about, it can take a long time for your brain to make sense of these new sounds. So parents play a big role in this early process of helping their young kids develop. And we actually heard from an audiologist, Michelle, who, talking about the experience of kids adjusting to hearing aids. So let's listen to Michelle.
Dr. Michelle Hu
I encourage families to allow their children to choose the colors of their hearing aids or their earmolds. The reason being is the kids are the individuals who will be utilizing them. How parents view and think about their child's disability absolutely influences how children think of their disability. When we make it fun, when we encourage ownership and choice — that this device is theirs and theirs alone — the outcome for use is significantly better.
Anita Rao
Yat, I'm curious about how you describe your own parents' attitudes toward your hearing loss and your hearing aids in particular.
Yat Li
So, you know, as I mentioned earlier, growing up in Asia and having Asian traditional parents, my parents instilled in me, at the time, that disability is somewhat of a shame and guilt. So I always hid it. And — and that was always ingrained in my head that, you know, whenever I step out of the house, whenever I put these hearing devices on, I am going to be someone else. I am going to be that John next door, who is able bodied, who has perfect hearing, I am going to be like him. I would always try to be and mimic someone else. Until the day when I was a little older and I recognized that this is really tiring. I'm not quite sure if I can do this anymore. And I hit a tipping/breaking point where I recognized, if I keep pretending to be someone else, if I keep trying to hide the fact that I wear prosthetic ears, I keep hiding the fact that I have hearing loss, no one is going to understand me. No one is going to trust me, and no one is going to see the authentic Yat that I am. So I recognized that in my early 20s. And recognized that, you know what, maybe I should learn to self-disclose.
Anita Rao
In the past four to five years, Yat has been opening up about his story more and more. I actually first met Yat in 2021 because we saw a YouTube review he did about the movie "Sound of Metal" and wanted to talk to him for our "Sound of Metal" review show. That YouTube channel is called "Let There Be Ears." Since that movie review, he's recorded so many more videos about his experiences as a hard of hearing millennial. He shared what it's like to be fitted with prosthetic ears, reviewed technologies available to those who are deaf or hard of hearing, and created educational videos about cleaning your hearing aids or making travel with hearing aids easier. He also opened up about disclosing his hearing limitations to his now wife, Angela.
Yat Li
I didn't tell her right off the bat. We went on several dates before I even had the inkling and the courage to speak to her about this. In fact, she even complimented how nice my ears looked. So, you know, that's a compliment to my anaplastologist who worked on my ears. It wasn't until, I think, the third or fourth date, when I — I remember I told her in the car. I was like, "Hey, Angela, there are things I need to tell you about, and it's about me — that I wear a hearing aid, that I wear ear prosthetics. And you may not see it, you may think it's a very beautiful ear — which I think so too — but they do come on and off." So she, she took it really gracefully, she understood. She, at the time, was studying to become an occupational therapist, so there was, you know, direct correlation. And I really, am really grateful that she, with her health background, and me as a person with lived experience, are able to walk on this journey together.
Anita Rao
So we heard earlier from Anna and Vika about both the humor and the hardship of being an interabled couple, especially when it comes to hearing and hearing loss. And I'm curious about any particular stories that stand out to you, any particular sticky moments that you all have had to navigate around hearing loss.
Yat Li
I remember taking off my hearing aid with her while traveling the first time and learning to communicate. Especially after you know, you tidy up or perhaps you know, as you actually go sleep, you know, there's a element of communication. So as we heard, you know, earlier from Elie, you know, we can't stop communicating. And when I take off my hearing aids, and there are many moments during the day that I do, and my wife and I have to develop a really interesting way to communicate. I'll sign in with her. And she's learning a little bit of that, for me is really weird. I've discovered that when I'm with her and when she tries to pull her lips by my by my cheek and try to speak with me there I hear even better, as well too interesting without my hearing aid. So we have that form of communication. We have that form of expression, and it's really lovely and it's very beautiful.
Anita Rao
You mentioned sign and I have heard that, you know, sign has this kind of poetry to it in a way, you know, the user can manipulate sign and have their own kind of language and personality through sign. I know that you signed, you said your wife is learning. How do you feel like that shapes how you express yourself, and is that different from how you may express yourself through speech.
Yat Li
Sign Language is another form of language, and it's very beautiful. And it's just like, perhaps another person taking up another language like Spanish. I currently am also learning to speak Mandarin as well, too. Because my boy's mother tongue is Mandarin. So I'm learning sign language, I'm learning Mandarin, I'm still improving on my Cantonese and of course, my native tongue English. And learning another language is beautiful, because there's many mistakes along the way. And she'll say, Okay, well, what are you signing here? I'm trying to understand you, or she'll poke fun at me, I'll poke fun at her for making the wrong sign. And I think this expression is learning and making mistakes together is something that is very, you know, it's bonding really. And it's really amazing to be able to share those forms of communication together, being Angela, my wife, a hearing person. And for myself being a deaf and hard of hearing person.
Anita Rao
There is nothing like making mistakes together to build intimacy — and also a little tension. I learned this lesson 100 times over on a recent international trip with my partner. We were trying to get around Paris using downloaded versions of Google Maps without cell service. Not a good idea. Yat's love story, Anna's and also mine are filled with warmth and humor — key ingredients for healthy relationships. But making it and thriving as an interabled couple is its own journey. Since Anna is an advice columnist, I couldn't let her go without getting some helpful tidbits.
Anna Pulley
I would definitely advise people to take it slowly. You know, it's a muscle that you learn, adapting to people who have different needs than you. It's not something that we, that we know intuitively, because we've been in a world that's hearing and, you know, or ablebodied, and so we're — it's not at the forefront of our mind. So be gentle with each other. If your partner makes a request, don't make them feel bad about it. You know, roll with it as much as you can. You're also — you're allowed to be frustrated. You're, like the partner who's ablebodied, you're allowed to be frustrated, you're allowed to be annoyed by it, because those feelings are real, and they're valid and, you know, so being patient, being as compassionate as you can, finding workarounds. There are remarkable workarounds now, not even just with technology, but, you know, obviously, there's learning signed communication, there's lip reading, there's all this stuff. And it's just getting better and more accessible, which is lovely.
The other big thing is have a sense of humor about it. I started writing down those adventures in deafness because I, on the days when I'm feeling so disheartened by my hearing loss, I look back at those and I'm like, "Okay, yeah, there's still some moments where I can find joy in this," and it still makes me laugh. Like I remember Vika, we were first getting together and I, I lost my hearing aid somehow during our hookup, and we're just turning the room upside down looking for it. And then as we went to say goodbye, I pulled in for a kiss and realized that the hearing aid was in her hair. So those moments, those moments get you through. And so yes, be gentle with yourselves, be gentle with each other, like, it's a learning process, you're not going to get it right the first time or the 100th time.
Anita Rao
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio-WUNC, a listener-supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast and WUNC's other shows on demand, consider a contribution at wunc.org now. Incredible storytelling like you hear on Embodied is only possible because of listeners like you.
This episode was produced by Audrey Smith and edited by Kaia Findlay. Amanda Magnus also works on our show, Madison Speyer is our intern and Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer. Quilla wrote our theme music.
As we cruise on into my least favorite month of the year, I'm going to ask you for a favor — tell one person in your life or friend circle about this show. I know that my own friends' podcast recommendations are the ones I take most seriously, so it really means a lot when you spread the word.
Until next time, I'm Anita Rao, taking on the taboo with you.