Anita Rao
When my parents got married, it was big news. "Indian Doctor Weds Seaham Girl" — That was the headline in my mom's hometown newspaper. Their marriage also inspired some big emotions from relatives who couldn't accept their choice to wed across cultural, racial and religious lines. A few of those relationships are now repaired after years of distance. Others still feel the weight of estrangement decades later. Bearing witness to that pain and conflict has at times made me hold my own siblings and parents tighter, and at others made it clear to me there are so many ways to belong. This is Embodied. I'm Anita Rao.
We live in a society that emphasizes the importance of a nuclear family, but stories like my parents are far from unique. A nationwide survey in 2020 reported that 27% of adult respondents had cut off contact with a family member, but that's just one way to define estrangement.
Raksha Vasudevan
I think for me, it's really a sense of: Do I feel like I know this other person and do I feel seen by them? And I think with my dad and with my mom and my brother, the answer is no. I think the word strange in estrangement is really key. I feel almost a stranger to myself when I'm in these relationships.
Anita Rao
That's Raksha Vasudevan. She's a writer with a beautiful take on what it means to find belonging when you're estranged from members of your nuclear family. Last month, she wrote about her family story for Harper's Bazaar. She stopped communicating with her father five years ago. He was physically and verbally abusive. Her relationships with her mother and brother are in more of a gray area — occasional texts and some social media contact. But for the most part, the relationships are superficial. And as she said, strange. What adds to the complexity for her is that she's an immigrant, and there are a whole lot of expectations about how much family should be tied up in her narrative.
Raksha Vasudevan
I think as a South Asian immigrant to America, I'm expected to find belonging in my, "ethnic community" — which often has either family or religion at its center, but I don't really feel a connection to either of those. But as a person of color, it's also hard to find a sense of belonging outside those avenues, and even if you look at our policies — for example, our immigration policies really prioritize family and blood ties. So even in sort of the legislative sense, family is really at the heart of immigrant life in America, and I think most people who I fully share my experience of estrangement with, their immediate reaction is either shock or pity. I think that both of those emotions are heightened by the fact that I am an immigrant — I am a woman of color. And: How sad that you can't even find belonging with your biological family.
Anita Rao
So where do you find belonging? I do really resonate with what you've said about kind of the assumed spaces in which people think immigrant communities will feel a sense of belonging, and sometimes those resonate and sometimes those really don't for you — where is belonging most accessible for you? Where are you finding that in your life?
Raksha Vasudevan
You know, I feel safe when I'm out in nature and I'm hiking. I feel safe when I'm hanging out with my dog. I don't think family necessarily always has to be human or biological. It can be animal. It can be nature. My friends are a huge factor in my sense of safety, and I think that's certainly important, but I think this narrative of chosen family can be a little bit tricky because, for me, when I heard that term growing up — for example, I always thought that meant: Oh, your chosen family will replace your biological family, but I don't think that's the case. I'm so grateful for my chosen family, but I also still feel a sense of loss and sadness over my estrangement from my biological family. Those two things can both coexist.
Anita Rao
You recently were in the process of wedding planning and thinking about weddings, which are an event that are usually very associated with family where there are designated roles for particular family members. I'm curious what came up for you in that process, and what that brought up for you in terms of your family estrangement at this moment?
Raksha Vasudevan
This past summer, I attended the wedding of a close friend of mine, and she's Tajik from Tajikistan. So the whole event incorporated a lot of Tajik traditions and dancing and food. I was recently engaged at the time, so I was paying attention to all the details and I was taking notes mentally, but what I didn't expect was that throughout the evening, which was a joyous event — and I was so happy for my friend and her fiancé — I was also sort of overwhelmed with this grief, which really caught me off guard because I already knew — for example, that my dad wouldn't be walking down the aisle. But I think the fact that her wedding incorporated all these traditions brought up a lot of other questions for me: Like, what music would we play? What kind of ceremony would we have? Are there any elements of Indian culture that felt important for me to include — and also her family members, not just her parents, other family members also made speeches and were a big part of the event. And for me, I'm not even sure if anyone from my family would be attending. So these are all questions that I have been grappling with since then, and I don't necessarily have answers. It was sad, but I think it also helped kind of clarify my thinking around estrangement in the sense that I've always thought of it as a very personal and private thing, but I think there are moments like getting married when your personal life becomes very public. Having that event is important to me, so there will come a time when I will have to very publicly reckon with that.
Anita Rao
Estrangement is often slow and drawn out. Family dynamics shift and unravel over years and decades, but sometimes change happens overnight.
Tiffany Scott
It was such a shock. I remember it was on St. Patrick's Day. I was driving home and my mom called me and told me that my dad had said that he was leaving.
Anita Rao
Tiffany Scott had always been pretty close to her dad. Her whole family was tight knit. Growing up, her parents were that rare, long term couple who were super affectionate, holding hands, kissing in public — much to Tiffany and her sister's chagrin. As an adult, Tiffany and her dad talked on the phone every week, but in March, when she was 33, that changed.
Tiffany Scott
I was so surprised. My sister and I rallied together, and we tried to talk to our dad, tried to understand what's going on and try to talk him out of it — I think out of desperation. We were so confused. He eventually said that he would stay with my mom for 30 more days, and at the time, there was a part of me that had a little hope. But there was also a part of me that knew his mind was made up and that he was leaving, although he didn't really give a reason why. Shortly after the 30-day period, he sent my sister and I a text asking us not to contact him, that he had a lot on his mind, and that he would contact us in a couple of weeks — and I didn't hear from him again for a year and a half.
Anita Rao
After a year and a half, he got back in touch for a few days and then you stopped hearing from him again. Tell me about what your narrative was about your relationship in those early days, in that first year or so, when you didn't really know what was going on, and the beginning of this period of disconnection?
Tiffany Scott
Well, there's the estrangement from my father — that's a part of my story. There was the supporting of my mother, that was also a part of my story, and while it was disappointing and heartbreaking even to not have my dad in my life, I felt like it was almost survival mode to make sure that my mother was taken care of. A man that she had married as a teenager — she had never lived by herself before. My sister and I do not live in our hometown. We live 1,000 miles away from her — so really just trying to make sure that we were there for her in whatever way we were needed.
Anita Rao
Tiffany still has unanswered questions about her dad's decision and what exactly led to this unexpected estrangement. One that often occupies her mind is how to reflect on and talk about the dad of the first 33 years of her life and all the good memories she has of this relationship.
Tiffany Scott
When I think about the good times, especially compared to what I experience today — one of the questions that I have: Was it ever real, or was the whole thing fraudulent? And I choose to believe that the good memories that I have with my dad, joking with him and just spending time with him, hunting and fishing with him was something that we did together — that it was real, and that he was a good dad, and I did have a good relationship. But now what I recognize is that it has changed, and that he is not that man. He is not the good dad that I had growing up. He's not the good dad that I had even in early adulthood. He, for whatever reason, has decided that he's not being active in my life, and I guess I just have to accept that. I'd say even similar to what is the book — "He's Just Not That Into You"— that just like if this were a dating relationship, and if I was being ghosted, I would just have to come to terms with the fact that — even though in a dating relationship, it seemed like we were having fun, and maybe there was something to that, for whatever reason, it's not there now. And that's kind of how I see my relationship with my dad. I have the same phone number. I have the same email. I do not know how to contact him, but he knows how to contact me. So I just kind of have to come to terms with the fact that he's not looking for me, and that means something. With regards to my niece and nephew — I don't talk about my dad with them. I really try to be respectful of my sister and her husband and how they want to manage that relationship, and I think as they get older — right now, they're in elementary school — as they get older, I might have more open conversations with what was, but at this time, I don't talk about it at all.
Anita Rao
There's so much tenderness in Tiffany and Raksha's stories. And even though by choice or circumstance, their family dynamics are no longer the same, there are parts of those connections they still hold close. For Raksha, it's all there in a photo she keeps on her desk.
Raksha Vasudevan
The photo must have been taken probably when I was five or six. It was taken in Chennai in India where I was born and where we lived until I was about seven years old. I believe it's in front of our house. It's a photo of me, and I'm smiling. I have pretty chubby cheeks, and my brother is next to me, and he's six years older than me. He's also smiling and our mom — you don't really see her, you just see her kind of rushing by in the background — and I assume my dad must have taken the photo. Every time I look at it, I just feel this, I feel this tenderness for them. And for me, you know, I think despite what our relationships may be today, it doesn't invalidate the fact that we were a family in a more traditional sense of the word at one point in time. The feelings that I had for them, the intimacy and the love that I had for them, and that they had for me, they were real, even if they've changed now. I keep that photo by my desk because it reminds me of, in a sense, not just where I came from, which is India, but also the person that I used to be. In that photo, I'm happy. My face is open, and I don't look afraid of the world, and that's kind of the attitude that I hope to have every day, and it also reminds me, in a sort of strange and unexpected way, of why I don't want to enter back into relationship with my family because I do want to preserve this tenderness that I feel for them — and I know the only way to do that is to keep my distance.
Anita Rao
Talking openly about estrangement and feeling those feelings is never easy. There are particular times of the year that conversations about family come up a lot and it can feel pretty raw.
Raksha Vasudevan
I have a partner and when we can we celebrate holidays with his family, and he has a very large and close family. Being in that kind of environment, it does feel overwhelming for me. That's certainly not the kind of family environment that I grew up in, and they're also curious about me and my family. We have only been engaged for about a year, so they're still getting to know me. And so questions about: Oh, how's your mom doing? How's your brother? How are his kids? When will you see them? Those kinds of questions always come up. I never really know how to answer them, because I don't think people really want the truth. Frankly, I don't think that people really want to hear me say: Actually, I have no idea. I don't know, I haven't talked to my mom in months. I think that's uncomfortable for people to sit with, so I think in terms of what feels supportive for me, I try to give myself lots of alone time, and I try to let my partner's family know about that in advance and set those expectations. I just say: I'm an introvert. I need alone time, and I also put on notice some of my close friends, my chosen family, that I might be texting them from where I'm hiding in the bathroom, and just having them say: Hey, it's okay. It's totally normal to feel this way — to feel overwhelmed and sad, and maybe: Grieving is normal. That really helps as well.
Anita Rao
I love that kind of setting the expectations for others, and Tiffany, I'm curious for you the same question, and then maybe around Father's Day, in particular, cause I know that's one that is a particularly reflective day for you.
Tiffany Scott
Recently, every Father's Day, I'm just reminded of how alone I used to feel with my sister — at least, that we actually shared this together. Where it's like, we had this great father who we used to celebrate, and now, all of a sudden, even though he's still alive, he hasn't passed away. He's kind of like this deadbeat dad who has nothing to do with us — and connecting with other people who were like me and my sister, who had great relationships with our parents early on, but then all of a sudden, it all changed. I got some relief, and knowing that I wasn't just on an island with my sister anymore — that even though there aren't a lot of us out there who had great dads who are now not great dads, we weren't alone. And so that's provided some comfort each Father's Day.
Anita Rao
Relief and support have come in many forms for both Tiffany and Raksha: books, texts from friends, cuddles with a pup — support and resources don't always provide answers, but Raksha says they don't have to.
Raksha Vasudevan
I think it would be really helpful if people didn't approach estrangement as necessarily a problem to be solved, and especially not a problem that —assuming they're the listener in the conversation — that they can solve. They might not know the circumstances of the estrangement, whether it's by choice or they were kind of compelled into it. I think talking about estrangement doesn't have to be that different from having conversations about any difficult subject. I think really listening with compassion and without judging or prying is what's most important. At the end of the day, we're still talking about human relationships. And there's so many configurations of that, and estrangement is just one of those. So let's recognize that.
Anita Rao
Tiffany, for you, what support are you looking for going forward as you continue to kind of reckon with a complexity of this human relationship?
Tiffany Scott
That's such a good question, and it's one I want to reflect on more because I guess I have to confess — I haven't. I don't know what support I need and that's probably the most honest answer I can give right now.
Anita Rao
No two stories of family estrangement are the same, but knowing that there are so many others out there experiencing shifts and separation in their families can make the experience less isolating. This is one story from Chelsea.
Chelsea Korynta
I became estranged from my dad when I was 18 years old, and the last time that I saw him or spoke to him that was not over text message, he was being arrested and taken from our house. This is the second time that he would end up being incarcerated, and after my dad got out of prison, he didn't make really any sort of attempt to apologize or own up to what he had done. So estrangement to me is kind of how I keep my mental health up regarding my family. I'm only estranged, I think, because — I had a choice not to be, but I wanted to put up strong boundaries and make it known what I needed from a relationship with my dad. I think that in conversations about estrangement, unfortunately, I think what's happened is that it's this big, scary mean term, but what it is a byproduct of is holding strong boundaries with your family and how you are taking action to protect your mental health —maybe some folks see that as you weaponizing your love or your presence — or you withholding in a way that's really negative — but I disagree. I'm not advocating more for people to become estranged from their family, but I just want other people to know that distancing yourself or protecting your mental health in that way can save your life. It helped me stay a part of my mom's life and of my siblings life, and it helped me find peace, and it helped me find a lot of new people in my life that I would have never learned to love as closely as I do if it weren't for all the really unfortunate stuff that happened with me and my dad and his side of the family — so there is not a period at the end of the sentence with that family member that couldn't give you what you needed or wasn't safe.
Anita Rao
That was Chelsea Korynta in Asheville, and this is Stef.
Stef Bernal-Martinez
When I was 22, I chose to end the relationship with my birth father — the person who had raised me up until that point. I made this decision after confronting some childhood sexual abuse, and at this time, this decision was really challenging, because I felt like I was going to lose my family as a result of making this choice for myself. I remember when my youngest sister was having her quinceañera— her big celebration for her 15th birthday. I typically would have joined a celebration like that in honor of her, but I remember I didn't participate in that particular family gathering because it was still at this really tense moment where there was a lot of unanswered questions and expectations on me for having chosen to end this relationship. And so I think, at that time, I just really wanted my family to honor my choice. The best choice for me. There was so much talk around me trying to forgive him and for me to not live in the past, and I just wanted my mom and my siblings to understand that this was how I was practicing forgiveness. This is how I was doing it. I was making a choice that allowed me to forgive. I think the topic of estrangement is part of a bigger conversation around disposability and a culture that has taught us to banish people who cause harm, because I never wanted him to be banished. I never wanted him to lose his entire community. I just wanted people to respect my own decision in my own healing journey.
Anita Rao
That was Stef Bernal Martinez in Alabama. Scott Schumer also chose to cut off contact with his father as a teenager, but the physical and emotional separation he wanted from his parent also led to an estrangement from another member of his family — his sister, Fern Schumer Chapman.
Scott Schumer
It started when I left for college. The main problem is I had a really, really bad relationship with my father. I was in total fear of him, and I couldn't stand up to him. I felt that I had escaped. I just was so happy to get out of that relationship at home between my sister, my father, my mother. And from there, she reminded me of my family and my father, and subconsciously I wanted to get away from that.
Fern Schumer Chapman
We came from a very traumatizing home. Our mother was a Holocaust refugee who had lost all of her family — and that's actually a part of this story. That was also very painful to me, because I was always feeling like my mother's family was murdered, and Scott and I had the chance to have relations, and yet, we chose not to, so it felt really uncomfortable to me, given our history.
Anita Rao
Scott and Fern were estranged for 40 years until they rekindled their relationship eight years ago. When they started talking again, Fern took notes and documented their conversations. Her memories plus research and conversations with other estranged siblings make up the contents of Fern's book: "Brothers, Sisters, Strangers: Sibling Estrangement and the Road to Reconciliation." She writes about some of the significant moments in the decades of their estrangement, which she has since discussed with Scott.
Fern Schumer Chapman
I ran into Scott at his son's school. He was the treasurer of the PTO, and I was invited into the school to talk about writing, and it came time to get paid. I walked up to a table and looked directly into my brother's eyes because he was the person who was doling out the checks, and neither one of us knew what to say to each other because of course we hadn't spoken in years. That moment was very painful for me because it just reinforced our distance and reinforced my sadness. Losing my brother was like mourning the living.
Anita Rao
Scott, when you hear Fern telling you about that moment for her in school, what did that moment bring up for you as you were still in the midst of not wanting contact, but then you ran into your sister, in person?
Scott Schumer
I was very uncomfortable. I did not know how to handle the situation at all, and it was very awkward. Deep down in the back of my mind, I knew I was at fault here, and I just kept pushing her away and — going my own way. Fern was at sea. She didn't know what was going on [and] why it was like this.
Anita Rao
This tension and lack of communication lasted until one day Fern got a call from her mother.
Fern Schumer Chapman
Scott was struggling in a number of ways on a number of fronts, and my mother called him one day and recognized that he was in a very bad state of mind. She panicked, and she called me and left a voicemail basically telling me I needed to do something — and of course, my response was: He hasn't talked to me for years. Why would he want to hear from me now? And she was just desperate and really played a lot of big cards like: You have a responsibility to the family and you have a responsibility to me, and even if you don't feel like a sister, you're part of this. And I then, really to placate her, agreed that I would call him thinking that he would never pick up the phone and wouldn't want to hear from me anyway, so I will have discharged my obligation to my mother and be done with it. But I called him, and he didn't answer. And then just a couple seconds later, he called right back.
Anita Rao
Fern, you both put work into building that trust and reconciling, but there are many siblings who you interviewed for your book that did not reconcile and who felt like keeping that distance in their relationship was actually a way to preserve their health and their strength. What takeaways do you have from those stories about when it's really a sign of strength to maintain that distance?
Fern Schumer Chapman
There are some relationships that are simply too toxic or violent and too dangerous to re-enter. That was never the case for Scott and me. We had shared a very traumatic history, and what he was just saying — I think is very important. We are able to cross reference each other's memories, and there's a real richness in that, but I'm not sure that every relationship — in fact, I'm quite sure not every relationship should be reconciled. And I think it's important that people ask themselves very crucial questions before they go back and try to reconcile. If they're going to find themselves lapsing back into these old regressive patterns, it's probably not a good idea to go there. Again, if they're going to find that they can't be their authentic selves, it's probably best to avoid these things. I think Scott and I had grown up enough and come past the most difficult parts of our life, so that we could finally connect with each other in a way that, like he says, provides a lot of richness. I think he and I give each other things that nobody else can. To be at this life stage and discover that now is quite remarkable.
Anita Rao
From her research and interviews with other estranged siblings, Fern also learned an important lesson about reconciliation — it must be mutual. That may seem like a given, but unless both parties want to talk, those talks cannot happen. Scott said on the day that Fern called, he felt like he was in such a difficult mental and emotional state, he was willing to try anything to turn things around. From there, it's taken time to rebuild trust and get into a rhythm of communication.
Scott Schumer
I feel like this is a evolving process, and my sister and I — this is the longest we've been in contact since we were like 15. I would be in and out of her life, and now, it's been eight years of a relationship. I mean, we've had our fights, but in the past, if we had a fight, I would just go into a cocoon and not want to talk to her, but now we talk it out — and it's a good thing. I feel like I am healing. I think it's essential that people hear about this stuff because people keep it buried, and I know how that feels. I really do.
Anita Rao
Embodied is a production of North Carolina Public Radio WUNC, a listener- supported station. If you want to lend your support to this podcast and WUNC's other shows on demand, consider a contribution at wunc.org. Now, incredible storytelling like you hear on Embodied is only possible because of listeners like you. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Friend and Kaia Findlay. Jenni Lawson is our sound engineer and Quilla wrote our theme music.
The show is supported by Weaver Street Market, a worker and consumer owned cooperative selling organic and local food at four triangle locations in North Carolina now featuring online shopping with next day pick up: weaverstreetmarket.coop. And if you enjoyed this show, give us a rating or review on iTunes. It's something you hear us podcasters talk about a lot, but it really makes a difference. Until next time, I'm Anita Rao — taking on the taboo with you.