SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
All week, NPR has been looking at how the food we eat every day affects climate change. KCRW's Anti-Dread Climate Podcast recently tackled a listener question about how a person's diet affects the planet. Here's KCRW climate reporter Caleigh Wells and Candice Dickens-Russell from the nonprofit Friends of the LA River.
CANDICE DICKENS-RUSSELL, BYLINE: This is the big decision. This is the one...
CALEIGH WELLS, BYLINE: Yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...We all have control over. We all have agency. We can do it. This is the episode.
WELLS: And we have to make this decision multiple times per day.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Yes, all of us.
WELLS: Apparently, it's a big enough decision that our question asker has been in a longstanding argument with her husband about it.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Oh, boy.
WELLS: So this is Akiko Miaki-Stoner (ph). She lives in Clovis, which is just outside of Fresno, and she wants to know which is better for the environment - eating seafood or eating chicken.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Ooh, them fighting words.
(LAUGHTER)
WELLS: Yeah. The backstory is actually kind of fun here. She was a pescatarian for years, just eating fish and plants, until she met her meat-eating husband.
AKIKO MIAKI-STONER: He would say to me, you know, it's worse to eat fish for the environment. It's worse to overfish the oceans than to eat chicken. They have a smaller carbon footprint. And I didn't know if that was true or not, and so that's why I decided to ask you folks.
WELLS: I mean, I think I know the right answer here. Yeah, it's chicken, right?
DICKENS-RUSSELL: We disagree.
(LAUGHTER)
WELLS: OK. Well, let's find out who's right.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: OK.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DICKENS-RUSSELL: This is The Anti-Dread Climate Podcast, your practical personal guide to protecting the planet. I'm Candice Dickens-Russell, environmental educator and CEO at Friends of the LA River.
WELLS: And I'm Caleigh Wells, KCRW's climate reporter.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
WELLS: OK, let me hear your case for fish.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: It's fish, for God's sake.
(LAUGHTER)
WELLS: Why is it fish? Tell me why it's fish.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: You know, I just - I have - I'm a 90% pescatarian. This has been, like, a choice I made way back in college. It's the sort of thing I think I just have a lot of emotional attachment to, like, what I learned...
WELLS: OK.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...Which is that the seafood is just so much better, easier when you're thinking about water...
WELLS: Sure.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...When you're thinking about waste. And I'm always thinking about water - right...
WELLS: Of course.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...In my life. I'm always thinking about water. So yes, maybe per calorie or per bite or whatever wacky tool is out there - I just have it in my head that fish is the better way.
WELLS: Yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you - with our lovely caller.
WELLS: I - you're - OK, I guess perhaps my argument is also a little emotional because I kind of can't stand fish.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Oh, boy.
WELLS: I don't like any fish.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: I can't deal with you.
WELLS: I'm so sorry (laughter).
DICKENS-RUSSELL: We're never going out together.
WELLS: You're right. I know. You were talking about your shrimp tacos earlier, and I was like...
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Yes. Yes,
WELLS: ...Oh, great for you.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Goodness.
WELLS: I thought chicken because they don't take up a lot of space. It's not like other farm animals. We eat almost all of it. We eat the legs and the wings and the breasts, so it's, like, really efficient. And they also - they don't live very long before they're slaughtered. They only live, like, you know, for a few weeks. It's not, like, months and months like cows.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Well, the...
WELLS: So...
DICKENS-RUSSELL: I'm with you.
WELLS: OK.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: So after you brought this up, I did some research. And the thing is, we need to define what better for the planet means.
WELLS: Sure.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: It's not just warms the planet least or fewest emissions or requires the least amount of water.
WELLS: Yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Those three different measurements will result in three different answers of what's best. So that's really kind of the important thing to remember here. But when we're talking about food, there's use of land. There's use of water. There's disturbance of natural habitat. There's - did you cut down the rainforest to grow this, right? There's pollution of the air and the water and the soil. It just depends on how you want to slice it.
WELLS: Yeah. That's - and I'm assuming, like you said, water use - I know that's the thing you care about. Fish, I would imagine, have to win because you don't need to, like, water them. They just live in the water.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: But it depends on what fish, right? Fish from these huge farms that are a huge problem, and we're getting algae blooms. I mean, it really does really depend. Anyway, overall, it's really close, but the answer very narrowly after the research is in appears to be chicken.
WELLS: Yay.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: I'm not hearing it.
WELLS: That's great. I really - I don't like fish.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Whatever, dude.
(LAUGHTER)
DICKENS-RUSSELL: OK, fine. You can keep your chicken. But I think we should broaden this out a bit because there are also protein sources that are way nicer to the planet than your lovely chicken.
WELLS: Right, of course.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: And the climate decision is a really, really big one.
WELLS: Yeah, arguably one of the biggest, at least according to our expert this week. Her name is Dana Hunnes. She's a senior clinical dietitian. She's a UCLA professor. She's an author, basically just your go-to expert on this intersection of climate and diet.
DANA HUNNES: If I had to select the most impactful thing that you as one individual can do on a daily basis to help both your own health and the health of the planet as a whole, that would be to look at your next meal, your plate because the foods that we eat actually contribute one-third of all greenhouse gases on the planet. That's even more than all the cars, planes, trains and automobiles.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Everybody eats, and this is why it's such a huge impact but also so easy to change right now. It's the thing you can do. We were talking on our previous episode - what can you do? - food, food, food.
WELLS: Yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Yeah.
WELLS: Absolutely. And you can do it multiple times per day.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Absolutely.
WELLS: And you can do it without breaking the bank either.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: That's right.
WELLS: And the good news is if you're a heavy meat-eater now, that means you get to make the biggest change.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Yes.
WELLS: How cool is that?
(LAUGHTER)
WELLS: Hunnes says beef alone - you might not be surprised to hear this - far and away is the worst thing. Eighty percent of animal agriculture industries' greenhouse gas emissions comes from beef and dairy cows. And something I didn't think about - because I think of cows, and I think of methane - they also require a lot of land and a lot of water.
HUNNES: You can take the shortest shower in the world, but if you eat a cheeseburger, that would be like taking three months' worth of showers every single day.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: So I have a funny story about this from...
WELLS: Great, love that.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...The environmental education world. We do all kinds of things with students and youth in schools.
WELLS: Right.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: And so we had this, like, kind of like a competition where students were looking for ways to save water to really impact the ocean. And so one year, there were these students who had done a survey.
WELLS: OK.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: How long are boys taking in the shower versus how long girls are taking the shower? I don't think the gender thing mattered at all because it was appalling. Like, these people were taking 30 minutes. These people were...
WELLS: Oh, good God.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...Taking 45 minutes, and I was just like...
WELLS: No.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...I was on my knees going, oh, my gosh, this is horrible. And I was so excited that they were going to make a change. They were going to teach these other - their fellow students that they were being totally wasteful and ruining the planet and needed to stop taking these long showers, right?
WELLS: OK. OK.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: That is not the solution they came up with. The solution they came up with was they were going to pledge to not eat at In-N-Out or another burger or other beef twice a week so that they could keep their long-a** showers (laughter).
WELLS: Oh, good (laughter).
DICKENS-RUSSELL: And, you know, once you know how much red meat really impacts the water and the water consumption, I could do nothing but applaud these children.
WELLS: Yeah. Well, good on them. That's still very impressive. Beyond beef, though, you said this other thing recently to me about eating lower on the food chain. Can you explain a little bit about what that means?
DICKENS-RUSSELL: It means fruits and vegetables. I know - gasp.
WELLS: OK.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: It just means not meat. It means, like, when you're looking at the food chain and who's on top and who's in the middle and who's on the bottom, plants are at the bottom.
WELLS: Oh, yeah. OK.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: That's super low, right?
WELLS: I like that framing because it's also - it's not black and white, and it's really positive. It doesn't say, like, never eat beef again.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Right.
WELLS: You have to eat tofu. But, you know, it's like trying to go toward it. You're trending a direction...
DICKENS-RUSSELL: That's right.
WELLS: ...Trending lower on the food chain.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: A little less of this, a little more of that.
WELLS: Yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: This is not an all-in, either-or, give it up, put it away, never do it again. This is a little less of this, a little more of that.
WELLS: Yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Yeah.
WELLS: Hunnes kind of has the same idea.
HUNNES: I mean, I don't tell people, you have to go vegan, because, I mean, that's just a nonstarter for 95% of the population.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: I hear that. And I think that what helps for a lot of people is this idea of decolonizing your plate. If you are used to a typical, like, picture-perfect, Norman Rockwell American diet, imagine a plate, and it's got, you know, maybe meatloaf - we talked about meatloaf before.
WELLS: Oh, yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: And then it's got mashed potatoes, and it's got peas. And when you think about not eating meat anymore, you just imagine a plate with just a pile of mashed potatoes and a pile of peas, and it feels very...
WELLS: It's so sad.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...Sad and deprived. But we eat a lot of curry at home, right? We eat a lot of foods from other parts of the world where people have been eating lower on the food chain forever and ever. And it's not a hard thing to do. It's bringing in lentils. It's bringing in other types of protein. It's bringing in - just kind of being more creative and decolonizing...
WELLS: Yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: ...That way of thinking of food. It's not an empty spot on your plate. It's a different dish.
WELLS: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Let's turn this into some takeaways. Akiko, chicken or fish? Overall chicken, but there are better options.
WELLS: Right. And those better options are lower on the food chain. So vegetarian options are better than the omnivorous ones, and vegan ones are better than the vegetarian ones.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: I'm still not buying this chicken thing, but...
WELLS: (Laughter).
DICKENS-RUSSELL: It's also not black and white. Vegans are planetary superstars in that they are doing all the right things.
WELLS: Yeah.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: But their diet is not for everybody - so the fewer animal products, the better. If you can live without them, the good news is that you can do it multiple times a day. You have several opportunities. Your next good decision is just right around the corner.
WELLS: Right.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: So lots of chances to do that.
WELLS: And, you know, my weekly ice cream is a major life highlight. I'm not going to stop doing that.
DICKENS-RUSSELL: And we're not going to ask you to.
WELLS: But my dinner tonight is vegan, so...
DICKENS-RUSSELL: Love it.
WELLS: ...Just take the wins where you can find them.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DETROW: That's KCRW climate reporter Caleigh Wells and Friends of the LA River CEO Candice Dickens-Russell. They cohost KCRW's Anti-Dread Climate Podcast, which you can find at kcrw.com/climate.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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