LAURA STASSI: 00:05
As a single person who's also a professional information gatherer, I sometimes have trouble asking questions of potential romantic partners. If they start to squirm, does that mean I'm asking too much, too soon? Or does it mean they're hiding something? Are they as wonderful for me as they seem to be? Or are they actually a liar, liar, “Pants on Fire”? That's what we're talking about on this episode of “Dating While Gray: The Grown-Up’s Guide to Love, Sex, and Relationships.” I'm Laura Stassi.
Have you ever been on a dating site, and someone asks you to help them out by sending money, maybe with a wire transfer or a gift card? Yeah, that's a big red flag. And sadly, people are falling for it. I read an FTC report that said online dating scams added up to $200 million in 2019. That's a 600 percent increase from four years earlier. And though I can't imagine it ever happening to me, I wonder if as an older person, I actually am more susceptible to scammers.
KIM KEY: 01:20
I think that everyone is more susceptible to online dating scams. I think that yes, in the past, scammers did target people who are a little older because they were a little less familiar with technology. However, that really isn’t the case today. A lot of seniors are very compatible with different devices.
LAURA: 01:43
That's Kim Key. She's a security analyst with PC Magazine. She wrote an article that caught my eye. It's on how to spot online dating scams. I got in touch with her to find out more.
KIM: Oftentimes, you see a scammer say that they live in a far-flung locale. Maybe they work on an oil rig. Maybe they're a secret agent. Whatever, they'll come up with all kinds of stories that explain why they don't live in your country, why they don't talk to you necessarily in your language perfectly, that sort of thing. Scammers also very quickly ask their victims for money. They do not want to dally about with “I love you’s” and long stories, and so on and so forth. They want your money, because all the time that they're spending talking with you is time they could be trying to fleece somebody else out of some cash. So keep that in mind.
Also, they like to get their money anonymously. So you know, just think of ways to give people money that is the same as cash, and they want that. So wire transfers are a big one. Gift cards are another one; any sort of like, digital currency that isn't traced. Yeah, they love that. So don't give it to them. They want nothing more than to string you along and get as much money from you as they can, without ever having to see your face. And you probably won't see their real face when you're speaking to them, because a lot of times they use fake photos. That's why I really recommend doing a reverse image search when you come across somebody's profile online. You know, if they look like a beautiful bikini model, and they're 23, maybe they're not reaching out to you for something great just yet. You know, just think about it beforehand.
LAURA: You were saying how the Internet, there's so much information out there. So some dating coaches really recommend that we don't do any research; that you want to have a nice, fresh conversation. What are your thoughts on that?
KIM: I think that it is important to always trust but verify. I don't think that they're wrong, that you need to come into a relationship with an open mind and be ready to listen and learn. That is great advice. But you also need to protect yourself. And you also need to make sure that you're not putting yourself in a really dangerous situation. So I think that a light Google search -- just gently type their name in, see what comes up, just see a few things. Maybe you find out what they do for a living. That's okay. That's okay to know before you meet them. I think it's okay to know their name. I think that it's okay to know very basic information. You don't have to scroll through all of their post history on social media or anything like that. In fact, I encourage you not to do that. I encourage you to tell them to make their posts private, if they are public, and make yours private as well. Because all that stuff can be used against you. So I really suggest that people just make sure that the person they're talking to is who they say they are. More than anything else, you're not trying to -- it's not a “gotcha” moment. That's not the purpose of this. The purpose of it is just to verify. That's it.
LAURA: 05:15
So, common threads are sometimes they're long distance; they need money right away; they don't want to meet in person. What about, are they anxious to jump off the site?
KIM: They want nothing more than for you to give them your phone number, your address, your first and last name, your middle name, your mom's middle name – all of those things. They want as much information from you as possible. And they want you off of the site so that it can't be monitored by the dating site. Because the dating site, by the way, can read all of the messages that you guys send to each other. And be aware of that, too. Anything that you send online, any information that you send -- all of the information that you put out there, whether you are calling it a private message or not, it's not actually private. Humans can read whatever you're sending on the back end. So be aware of that.
LAURA: 06:09
Okay, so that's interesting, because what you're saying is if the site were to get hacked, even if you're still staying on the site, developing a relationship with someone, a legit person, your information is still --could be compromised.
KIM: Absolutely. There are a lot of scammers that we've seen trolling people's social media accounts and picking up bits of information from them, and then using those to socially engineer a relationship with their victim. So they'll say -- they'll approach the victim and say, “Oh, my goodness, it says that you love Braves baseball, too. I've been a fan for 30 years.” Okay. All right. They might also mention your high school football team that, you know, you're a cheerleader for. They will go through, and they might mention relatives’ names that you've mentioned in your social posts.
LAURA: Oh.
KIM: Scrub all of that, scrub all – they’ll know your kids’ names. They might have pictures of your kids that you've posted yourself online. These aren't private photos. If you post them publicly, anyone can save those to their device and use them later. And they can use them for any purpose. Why would you give everybody all that information? Don't do it.
LAURA: 07:28
Oh, boy. Okay, so you are a little bit younger than the Dating While Gray audience. But you've had some experience with online dating.
KIM:
The last time I was online dating was over a decade ago. But that is where I met my husband. We met on a dating website, and he wooed me with a conversation about mac and cheese. And I said, that's who I need to spend the rest of my life with. (Laughter) And here I am. But no, I've never been scammed. But I have friends who have been scammed. I've had, you know, one of my friend's, his dad was scammed very effectively. They stole thousands of dollars from him. And one of the things that I noticed the most from this was that he didn't tell anybody about it for a long time. He was ashamed. And I think it's important for people to talk about this stuff, if it happens to them. Because if you don't talk about it, if you don't report it, then people won't know, and it can happen to others. So don't be ashamed. It can happen to anyone.
LAURA: Yeah.
KIM: That's what these people do, all day. You're thinking about other stuff. You have your kids, you have a job, you have grandkids, etc. These people, that's all that they're doing, is focusing on how to get your money and how to get your information. So just be aware of it. You know, I hate that people have to be so careful. But I think it's important. And I don't want to say all this to scare your listeners or anything like that. I want to make that very clear. You can still be online and interact with people online in a safer way. It just takes a couple more steps. Just don't do things as quickly as you might be doing them right now. Take a moment to think before you respond to a message. Who is this person that I'm talking to? Do I need to respond to them? It may feel rude to not respond to a message. But I think sometimes, it's a good idea.
A lot of times, scammers want to move things along as quickly as possible. And they want to get to the “I love you” stage very quickly. And they'll start showering -- so they'll start love bombing, basically showering somebody with affection and making them feel so, so good. And then they'll get you by asking you for something a little bit more: a little bit of money, maybe, or maybe information about your past that you haven't revealed yet.
LAURA: Hmm.
KIM: They'll start wearing you down because they've already told you, “I love you. Why don't you trust me? This isn't gonna work if we don't trust each other.” Watch out for that. Because they're trying to play on your emotions to get something out of you. And that something is nothing to do with romance. It's everything to do with manipulation.
LAURA: 10:24
We'll share links to Kim’s PC Magazine article and the FCC report, plus a how-to on doing a Google image search. That's all in the next Dating While Gray e-newsletter. You heard Kim say scammers pretty quickly get to the money ask. I've heard from gray daters who are worried about another type of romance scam: a person who worms their way into your heart so they can then rely on you financially.
ELLEN: 10:52
Hi, Laura. My name is Ellen. I live in Washington, D.C. I got separated in 2015. I started dating a year later, divorced two years after the separation. My dating cycle has been, you know, somewhat perhaps manic -- a whole lot at once, then breaks, and then jumping back in wholeheartedly. As you know, getting a divorce is a gigantic financial burden. So after my divorce, I was starting from scratch and rebuilding. I'm financially responsible for my young daughter. So I need to be very thoughtful and prudent about my finances. And so I have started running background checks, complete background checks on people that I'm interested in.
They've turned up interesting things. One gentleman was arrested for solicitation of prostitution, which I saw as a negative thing. But mostly what I'm looking at is from a financial standpoint, because I don't want to become emotionally attached to someone who has a history of financial irresponsibility. So while I can understand the complexities and the challenges of getting divorced and how divorced men may have what could be somewhat justifiable spotty financial histories, I use that as a litmus test. I just don't want to go into that arena with someone. I want someone who I'm not going to have to suspect could have ulterior motives. And I want someone who will understand that my wealth is passing to my daughter.
LAURA: 12:29
Conducting background checks to avoid potential scammers. We'll talk more about that after the break.
BREAK
LAURA: Remember Paula from Episode 6? She's the woman in Colorado who got set up by a friend. She went on what she thought was a promising first date -- until she remembered a very rude question.
PAULA SOUNDBITE: 12:58
I said, I know I got pretty drunk, and I probably should not have had that third martini. But I said, “Did you ask me how my (bleep) was shaved? And he looked at me and he said, “I did.”
LAURA: 13:10
Paula’s also tried online dating in the 15 years since losing her husband. One time she connected with someone who was about two decades younger than she was.
PAULA: 13:21
I almost didn't go out with him because he had two boys that were not even teenagers yet. But I'm not gonna lie. He was cute, had a, you know, good job. And I thought okay, why not? So we had a really good date and things progressed. We started seeing each other and, you know, I could see myself falling for this guy.
LAURA: 13:40
Paula and -- let's call him Guy were dating for about six weeks when the COVID-19 lockdown hit. So they nested. Guy worked remotely from Paula’s house, went shopping and brought home expensive bottles of wine, nice cuts of steak for dinner. Seems sweet and cozy, right?
PAULA: 13:58
At some point, my radar went up a little bit.
LAURA: 14:02
Can you give me an example, when you say your radar went up, like something he said or something that happened?
PAULA: 14:07
Well, early on, I mean, I think like, I don't know, it was maybe the second or third time he'd been over to my house. He said, “Wow.” He's looking around and I said, “What are you doing?” And he said, “I'm just thinking, I can't see my boys moving in here.” And I -- my face, you know, I have no poker face. I went, “What? Your boys are never gonna be moving in here because you're not gonna be moving in here.” I don't know if he just thought down the line that, you know, that's the eventual thing, that we would all live together as a family. And I told him I didn't want to have children when I was 26. I'm not going to have them at -- I guess I was 59 when we were seeing each other. One time, he asked me what my ring size was, and we'd only been going out like, you know, a little over two months. So I actually paid somebody quite a bit of money to do the deep dive.
LAURA: 14:58
Okay, so I can imagine it would be very flattering that a younger man -- and somebody you had a connection with of some sort, enough to want to be dating him and sleeping with him, I imagine.
PAULA: Right.
LAURA: And then -- I think we all have those feelings of, you know, if something … if a situation makes us uncomfortable, a lot of times we are sort of programmed to like, kind of dismiss it. So I appreciate that you, you could step aside, step away from the situation enough to think, “Okay, I really need to do this.” Sounds like you made an investment. So you did this online? Did you need to know his Social Security number?
PAULA: 15:36
No. I just remember I did give his birthday. You know, I just gave them what I knew, gave this online place what I knew. The more information, the better. But you know, I knew where he lived, I knew his age and you know, his birthdate, that kind of thing, where he worked. There's so much to find now online that you can, you know. And I got the report. And it wasn't -- there was nothing -- he wasn't married or anything nefarious, but he had the lowest credit score I've ever seen on a human being in my life.
LAURA: Oh.
PAULA: And he also had lied about -- I mean, he told me a bunch of stuff that was bad. And I think he was doing that to like, cushion the blow. Like, here's all these bad things about me that you need to know. And then he thought that maybe -- I think he thought that I would accept his word for it. Like, all right, I know that you have, you know, you did this, this and this. But it was far worse. He had court liens people had, his wages were being garnished from a previous relationship. Many bankruptcies … just a nightmare, financially.
LAURA: 16:34
You said that he sort of told you a little bit to cushion the blow, but you had no idea of the extent.
PAULA: 16:39
Correct. I was hoping to be, you know, pleasantly surprised. Like, okay, he told me the worst that it could be. I was pissed off. I was pissed off, I felt like I'd been duped. He sounded like he had worked at this job a lot longer than he had. I found out that he had just basically started like a month before we had started dating. So it was a new job to him. And that was the other thing I was shocked about. The number of jobs that he had had in this report was like, he had just, you know, jumped careers -- and all the red flags.
And I'm not wealthy by any stretch, but I own my house, and I live fine. And I go on big vacations every year. And I can do all those things. And I wasn't about to be -- and I'm from Los Angeles. So I'm really, really like, skeptical of everybody. And I wasn't going to be snowed. I think he -- maybe he thought he could snow me or -- he was very charming. And I ended it. I sent him a text that morning and said, “I won't be seeing you again, and please don't contact me.” And he said, you know, first he tried to call; I didn't accept. And then he texts me back and he goes, “What on earth happened?” And I said, “I did a credit report.” And that's all I wrote.
LAURA: Uh-huh.
PAULA: And he blocked me. He blocked my texts, he blocked me on Facebook. And the meantime, I had already gone -- before I texted him, I untagged him from everything on Facebook, because we were like, in a relationship on Facebook. So I --
LAURA: Sure.
PAULA: Yeah. And I unfriended him. I deleted every tag that we had on Instagram or Facebook. Just got rid of any evidence of him in those previous, you know, close to three months.
LAURA: 18:15
Do you think he targeted you because you were an older, established woman?
PAULA: 18:19
There's a part of me that feels like maybe once he got in this situation, like once he came to my house and saw that, you know that I don't have a house payment, and I don't have to work, and this is how I live. And I’d just come back from my three big vacations in a year, because my dog was getting really old, and I didn't want to leave my dog. So I kind of packed in three vacations, which I would have taken over three years. And then the pandemic hit, of course, and there was no more.
LAURA: Yeah.
PAULA: But -- so maybe once he got here, he thought, you know, I can be this -- you know, I was going to be the sugar mama. And he found – he came to find out that is so not me. I'm very suspicious of everybody.
LAURA: 18:55
You know what? And I wouldn't even call it suspicious. I would just say, I mean, first of all, I don't know this man. I feel bad for him. I don't like what he's done in his past.
PAULA: Right.
LAURA: And I don't blame you for ending it. But I do feel bad for him because it sounds like he really just doesn't know how to – like, you're saying he shows…okay, he's got horrible credit. He's got liens waiting to get and yet he thinks nothing of spending money he doesn't have.
PAULA: Exactly. I don't know if he's trying to impress me, or I don't know. I don't know what the hell. People just lie. They lie about their height. They lie about their weight. They lie about everything. And those are easily verifiable when you meet them and see them, but you don't know whether they're lying about whether they're still married or where they work or how long they've been there -- that kind of thing. Or if they have liens against their property or whatever or court -- they've been, you know, they have felonies on there. Those are the things you want to find out before you start falling in love.
That's, that's my new thing is like, before I get too much further and be sure -- you know, before one of us or both of us catch up feelings, I just want to get that out of the way. I have done this recently. And actually, he taught me to do this from now on is anytime I go out with somebody for more than maybe three or four dates, and it seems like you know, we're kind of headed … by that time, three or four dates, you kind of know whether you're gonna keep dating or it's, you know, it's over or whatever. I've been doing this like one-day pass to do a like, just a rudimentary background check, just do they have any court things against them? Just you know, are they actually divorced like they say they are.
LAURA: 20:39
So this is a standard operating procedure for you. If you are interested in somebody, you run a -- you pay a little bit of a fee and do like, a brief background check.
PAULA: Yes.
LAURA: Okay.
PAULA: Since him, yes, I've been -- that's my new M.O.
LAURA: I caught up with Paula recently. She had good news. She's met someone, and he's moving in. She's actually known him for years; they reconnected after his wife died. Paula told me she did not do a background check. But they shared important financial information, like credit scores and bank account balances. And they’re signing a cohabitation agreement.
You heard Paula say she felt duped by the younger man. But what if being duped has nothing to do with someone wanting you for your money, and everything to do with them stealing your love, your trust? That's what happened to journalist Abby Ellin. In fact, she wrote a book about it, called “Duped: Compulsive Liars and How They Can Deceive You.” Abby herself became romantically involved with a Navy doctor she interviewed for a previous project. She nicknamed him “The Commander.”
ABBY ELLIN: 21:55
He told me he was opening up a hospital for kids with cancer in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I was going to school for international relations at Johns Hopkins. And I said, “Keep me posted. I want to know about that.” And that was how it, you know, began.
LAURA: 22:08
Abby and The Commander were both in the D.C. area. And I have to say around here, it's not unusual to meet people who legitimately can't talk about what they do for a living. Or they go away for a while and can't stay in touch. Still, The Commander seemed so over the top, I asked Abby if it sounded critical for me to ask, how could she have been duped?
ABBY: 22:32
It does not sound critical, because everybody thinks that. And I'll tell you, first of all, I feel better because everyone I know, liked him. I mean, you couldn't not like him. And because he didn't look the part. He didn't look like The Rock. You know? He looked like he was bordering on, you know, Woody Allen. And be that -- whatever Woody Allen's issues are, no one's ever gonna confuse him for a Navy SEAL. So this guy didn't look like that. He looked like a nice, nerdy doctor. So my -- I'm thinking two ways. First part of me is like, there's no way this guy would lie, because you wouldn't believe it. So I thought, well, someone has to do these top secret, super-secret missions, and what better decoy than this nerdy, asthmatic doctor? You know what I mean?
(Laughter)
ABBY: So that's -- for real. I mean, that's, you know. Secondly, I researched as much as possible. I trust no one. And I researched everything he said that I could. But I couldn't research, “I'll talk to you when there's a secure line. I'm going to Afghanistan.” I couldn't research that. I couldn't research, “Yes, I work for the CIA.” It's not like there was a human resources department that I could call up and say, “Hey, you got this guy?” In my defense, his son, his aunt, who was 85, his brother and sister-in-law and their kids, everybody seemed to know what this guy did for a living. Everybody was clear.
LAURA: Yeah.
ABBY: You know, I figure when his son calls up and says, “Hey, Dad, there's a black car outside in front of the house. Is that one of your guys?” I figured that means that the kid knows what's going on. It never occurred to me that he actually would have lied to his son in such a manner.
LAURA: Even without all the lies, he had an intriguing kind of resume, I guess.
ABBY: And that was true, he did. He mixed fact and fiction. So for example, he gave me some pearls, you know? And he said, “They're Mikimoto.” And I remember looking at the clasp, and there was no M, there was no N. There was no O. There was nothing. There was no K. There was nothing resembling anything. And I said to him, “This, this can't be, this isn't Mikimoto,” or if they -- because I thought somebody lied to him, you know, and they sold him fake goods. And he got mad at me. He said, “I don't know. They just told me they're Mikimoto.” So I went to the Mikimoto store in New York City. And I said, “What's up with this?” And they said, “They're nice, but they're not ours.”
So, I mean, I was checking on things. I just -- so some things were true, some things weren’t. He told me he was getting me this expensive wedding ring, diamond ring. And he told me he was going to DeBeers in New York City. So I called up DeBeers. I said, “Did you have this?” I swear, and I did this while I was, while things were good. But I was checking in on him. And I called DeBeers. I said, “I’ve got to know. Was there this doctor who was in looking for a ring?” Blah blah. But they're like, “Oh, yeah, totally. He's a lot of fun.”
And I just want to tell you one thing: There's a new poll of 3,047 romance scam victims. This is the largest poll ever conducted. And it found that 75 percent are college educated, and 13 percent have graduate degrees.
LAURA: Wow. I think that's a good point, because one of my questions was, are there person -- it's not a question of intelligence, or being educated, but I'm wondering if there are certain personality traits that we possess, that make us more vulnerable to being duped?
ABBY: Well, I think part of it is, is in fact if you're an intelligent person, you would say -- you're vulnerable to your vulnerability, you're vulnerable to your vulnerability. You have no idea how vulnerable you are.
LAURA: Right.
ABBY: You have no idea how easy a target you are. And nobody would imagine that they that somebody, so especially if you're smart, you think no one would ever be able to get one over. And I've got to tell you the truth, as often I am now usually -- and I really would fight with myself and some of my friends because I err, have always erred on the side of cynicism and mistrust or, or suspicion. I'm a journalist. And I tried so hard to put it aside saying, you know, this, this guy is really good. You're just really suspicious, you're cynical, this is why you've been single all these years. And I feel it all the time. Even now, when something happens, I say nah, I don't think it's gonna happen. And usually not with my own life, even with my friends. And that's usually the case, and it pains me. But there's a lot of deception rolling around, on many levels.
LAURA: Yeah. And I think what you said before about, you have to learn, you know, being accused of asking too many questions, or not trusting somebody, I think a lot of us fall into that. I mean, I know I ask a lot of questions, which some people have accused me of -- I don't know, of not believing them. But it's like, no, sometimes I just have to wrap things up in my mind, you know. I have to make it clear in my mind. And so it never dawned on me that I'm being accused of not believing somebody because they are in fact not telling the truth.
ABBY: It's their guilty conscious.
LAURA: I love the way you write. And one line you had in there, which I loved, was, “It's impossible to see red flags when you're wearing rose-colored glasses.” And it's like …
ABBY: Yep.
LAURA: Based on the fact you also said, “It's easy to adore someone who adores you.” Let's also make it clear, which you also make clear in your book, it's not just men who are duping women. Women are also duping men. It goes both ways.
ABBY: Totally.
LAURA: But are there other personality traits or things that people who have been duped have in common?
ABBY: There's a sense of optimism. There's a sense of naivete. Even if you're smart, you can still be somewhat naive. There's a sense of openness. I will talk to anybody. And I will listen to most any story.
LAURA: 28:21
At one point, he asked you if you had a trust fund, and you said no, but the relationship continued. So it wasn’t … doesn't sound like it was money he was after.
ABBY: 28:30
I don't know what the hell he was after. I mean, the ego part of me is like, oh my god, he just wanted to be around me because I am so much fun, but -- you know, and so sexy and adorable. And I'm not sure that that's what it was. I think with people like that … first of all, he didn't want to be with me because while he was with me, he left one person to go to me. And then when he was with me, he was courting someone else.
LAURA: But it wasn't like he was being more true to them.
ABBY: No, he wasn't. In fact, she was dying of cancer, and he was lying to her too. I think what it was with people like that, they really enjoy the one up. They really enjoy the game. They really enjoy seeing if they can get you.
LAURA: Turn turns out The Commander also struggled with substance abuse. He went to prison for writing fake prescriptions using other people's names, including Abby's. Abby told me this experience has not turned her off to dating. But she wants to know someone's first and last name before meeting them in person so she can get basic information by Googling. She invites the other person to Google her too. And as any relationship progresses, Abby said she's going to keep her journalist hat on and quote, fact check the hell out of whatever she's being told. Eyes wide open: Good advice for all of us.
END CREDITS: Dating While Gray is produced in partnership with North Carolina Public Radio. For more on the show, check out datingwhilegray.com That's also where you can find links for sending voicemails and emails. I'd love to hear from you. I'm Laura Stassi. Thanks for listening