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Transcript - The Parent Trap

GIA: 00:02
I've never been a parent who's like, this is grown-up business and kids need to stay out.

LAURA 00:09
My therapist has told me that there's usually one of the kids that is secretly wishing for their folks to get back together. She'll have 40-year-old adults on the couch that are saying, “I really wish Mom and Dad got back together.” And I know which one of mine is that, so …

LAURA STASSI:  00:28
Aside from my directional issues, do you have any thoughts on things I might be doing wrong and things I might be doing right?

SUNNY: 00:37
On one hand, I don't think you're doing anything wrong. I think you're doing your best with the options you've got.

LAURA STASSI: 00:44
(Laughter) What does that mean?

LAURA STASSI:  00:48
When it comes to grown kids and their impact on gray relationships, I'll quote from one of my favorite songs: Some days are diamonds, and some days are stones. This is “Dating while Gray: The Grown-Up’s Guide to Love, Sex, and Relationships.” I'm Laura Stassi and on this episode, we're talking with parents and grown kids – including one of mine. It's “The Parent Trap.”

Some young adults don't like to think about their mom or dad as someone's romantic partner. Then there are young adults like this one.

LAURYN: 01:26
I'm Lauryn, I live in Portland, Oregon. I know that every conversation won't be tailored to me being 25 right now, but I enjoy every single story and every episode. My podcast life is very much about love. So I appreciate this.

LAURA STASSI:  01:40
Lauryn not only listens to Dating While Gray, she turned her mom on to us.

GIA: 01:45
I'm Gia from Portland, Oregon, born and raised. Mother of two adult children. I'm a full-time employee, full-time student. My hobbies are pretty much anything to do in music and movies.

LAURA STASSI:  02:01
Gia has had two marriages that ended in divorce, and she hasn't been eager to get back out there. Daughter Lauryn thought Gia need a little inspiration. Gotta love that. I reached out to learn more about this dynamic mother-daughter duo.

GIA: 02:14
So I met my kids’ father when I was young. I think I was like, 17. My home life was not great. I didn't have very many examples on what a successful relationship or a healthy relationship looked like. I think staying in the relationship after I knew it wasn't a good relationship -- at first, it was, I thought I was telling myself, it was for the children. Like, you know, everybody says, you know, “Stay together for the children, it's gonna get harder if you have to do it alone.” But I felt like I was already doing it alone. So I think after a few years, I just finally decided it might be best to you know, separate and, you know, focus on myself and my children.

LAURA STASSI:  02:59
What you've expressed is what a lot of us feel no matter how old our kids are. You feel like you need to make a good go of it because you want them to have, you know, both parents around, but then sometimes it just becomes impossible.

GIA: 03:12
That's true. And with the second one -- it took a while before I got into a second relationship. And I think I got into it for the wrong reasons. I somehow thought, okay, my kids have gone like years without having some kind of, you know, father figure and, you know, my son was a teenager by then and Lauryn was younger. Like I say, they're seven years apart. And I was thinking, okay, this person, you know, said he wanted to show up and be, you know, take the role of a stepfather. And that didn't quite work out.

LAURA STASSI: Oh.

GIA: He was not stepfather material. At least not back then.

LAURA STASSI:  03:53
Lauryn, do you feel the same way? Do you think he was not stepfather material?

LAURYN: 03:57
Um, well, now that I know the whole story. Anyway, I was so young then, it was different. So yeah, I definitely felt differently then. And I think now knowing what I know, it was probably a better story from my perspective rather than my brother's, that stepdaughter-stepdad-stepson relationship, I'd like -- there was very clear differences there. And so that's not what you want, ideally, when you're looking for someone to be a father figure.

LAURA STASSI:  04:24
Yeah. Gia, was this anything you talked about directly, or did you try to…

GIA: 04:29
Um, honestly, I don't even remember. I know I had some conversations with them. But looking back, I wish I had had more conversations with them. You know, because people when they're in relationships, they don't realize that the things they don't think children see, they actually do see.

LAURA STASSI: Yeah.

LAURYN: I remember the conversations. I believe my brother had already become a grown-up and left right away, but I was in middle school still. And it was one of those things where the conversation was not heavy or anything. It was just, how do you feel about us all living together? Or how do you feel about this or that and thinking about getting married, that kind of thing. So it's like, what do you think about that? And like, I will give you my honest thoughts. I've kind of, I've never not been honest. And so yeah, we've had those conversations. I don't know if she remembers them. But I do.

GIA: 05:25
I think relationships between mothers and daughters change, you know, as they age. But I can say from a young age, Lauryn was more mature, I saw that already. She was more mature, where she wanted to hang out with older people instead of her peers. She was very intelligent, you know. So I think the relationship changes with age. And, you know, I share a lot of things with my daughter.

LAURA STASSI:  05:54
Well, she's got great taste if she turned you on to the podcast, right?

GIA:  05:57
Yes, definitely.

(Laughter)

LAURA STASSI: So Lauryn, I'm wondering if now that you're an adult, would you feel comfortable talking to your mother about specific aspects of any relationship she might get into, like -- either red flags or something for her to think about?

LAURYN: 06:20
I'm definitely comfortable with that just because I know if I was getting into a new relationship, I'd be able to go to my mom. So it's kind of like we have -- I think we have that there.

LAURA STASSI: 06:32
Uh-huh. And Gia, how do you feel about that? Do you want her to weigh in, or …

GIA:Of course, I welcome her feedback and her input, I trust it. Of course, I wouldn't give my opinions on anything unless I was asked. I've learned to have boundaries with my children like, okay, I'm not the mother, I can't tell them what to do and give them this advice. So I'm learning to just wait until I'm asked.

LAURA STASSI: 06:59
Would you ever ask, Lauryn?

LAURYN: 07:01
Well, the conversations I have with my friends, of course, are going to vary between the conversations I have with my brother or my mom. Everybody gets different tidbits. But I definitely am comfortable going to my mom for advice. And usually -- I can think of one other time when I've had a new relationship or I was going to start seeing this person. And she's like, “okay, well, I think that's a, I think that's a good idea.” Like seeing a new person -- for me, I’m like, I don't really like meeting new people. I don’t enjoy it.

(Laughter)

LAURYN: Yeah, my mom's -- like she's saying, she doesn't give unwanted advice. But she's very encouraging, I would say.

LAURA STASSI: 07:37
How I came to find out about you all is that Gia, you wrote something on the Dating While Gray Facebook page, and it said something like you weren't quite ready to start dating again. But this would be helpful advice for when you are. So how long have you been single this second time?

GIA: Gosh, I lose track of time because I’ve got so much going on. I want to say maybe four years, approximately. Lauryn, am I right?

LAURYN: 08:05
I mean, I couldn't even guess.

GIA: 08:09
I'm gonna say four years.

LAURA STASSI: 08:11
I know you're busy. I mean, it sounds like your schedule and your life are both full. But is there anything that's, I don't know, preventing you from kind of going back out there other than time?

GIA Yes. So I honestly had signed up for a couple of dating sites, and I was getting the same thing over and over again – like, one-word responses or, you know, “I like your profile,” or, “I like your picture.” But like, there's no substance. I’m like, am I asking for too much for someone to write more than just one word, or get likes? And I'm kind of old-fashioned, where I look for the guy to, you know, take charge or whatever, or, you know, initiate. So that might be part of the reason. Another thing is, I don't know, I just see what's out there and I'm just like, I think the longer that I'm single, and that I enjoy coming home to my own home and, you know, not having anyone to answer to, having things my way -- I think the longer that this continues, the harder it's going to be for me to even open myself up to dating.

LAURA STASSI: Well, so it sounds like you've reached a point where maybe that you might feel like being in a romantic relationship would require too many compromises, compromises that you don't want to make.

GIA: Um, I wouldn't say that. I think some of the things that I'm looking for will take a little longer to find a partner because I'm comfortable being alone. I don't mind going to movies or music events or anywhere alone, by myself. Whereas I know plenty of people would be like, “What? You're going by yourself?” I'm comfortable doing that. I like things my way -- not saying I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone, but I'm just not open to like, sharing a home with someone unless we have, you know, boundaries and they respect my time alone with myself. You know, that kind of thing. I'm not saying, like, go away, but I like my space.

(Laughter)

LAURA STASSI: Lauryn, is this news to you in any way?

LAURYN: No, my mom and her ideal relationship would be, of course, someone else who is funny and loves music as much as she does, personality wise. But their home would be like a total butterfly house where everybody has their own everything on this side, and their own everything on this side, and they like, have dates in the middle. That's what I always imagine. It's perfect too because she loves butterflies.

LAURA STASSI:I love that. I was gonna say, did you make that up, butterfly house? Because I -- that's a perfect visual.

LAURYN: Well, I kind of associate it with my mom because she loves butterflies. But that's how I picture her ideal relationship going. Like they're not too far, but they have their own bathroom; they have their own everything over there -- away from me.

LAURA STASSI: I'm gonna write that down because I think you've, I think, you know, we're gonna get some builders to do some butterfly houses. Because, you know, there's this whole thing about living apart together, where people maintain their separate residences. But the butterfly thing is so much nicer. Just meet in the middle. You're that far apart, but you can get together pretty quickly.

GIA: Yeah, come together. Like, we can have coffee in the morning.

LAURYN: Yeah, they'll have to share the kitchen because she doesn't want to cook. And he'll have to cook.

GIA: Yes, the person that I'm going to be with has to be able to cook.

LAURA STASSI: And Lauryn, you were saying that, you know, you look at podcasts and you found Dating While Gray, and you recommended it to your mom. Do you have a strong opinion about whether she should put herself back out there? Or just, you know, you've heard what she said about wanting her space and you know how busy she is. But at the end of the day, do you feel like she's, you know, missing out?

LAURYN: I mean, she's really busy, of course. But the longer she stays in that, it will get harder for her to put yourself out there. And I think someone else can make her really happy. But I also know that we are the same, that we do not have a lot of patience. And it takes a lot of patience to meet new people, take their B.S., and you know, get to know a new person. And you have to do that over and over and over again in order to find the right person. I don't think she's missing out, but I know she's probably gonna make the right decision for herself.

LAURA STASSI: Dating takes patience – oh, yeah. By the way, Lauryn's in a relationship with someone she met organically. He's older, almost as close to mom Gia’s age as her own. Lauryn said she had no issues telling her mom, but she hesitated before sharing the news with her big brother. Clearly, Lauryn supports any romantic pursuits her mom may embark on, but some kids don't. Or at least, that's what their parents signal. Are grown kids a reason, or an excuse, to be non-committal? We'll explore that after the break.

BREAK

LAURA STASSI: Our next guest has a familiar name: Laura. She's in her late 50s, lives in the Midwest and has three sons. She's also an adult child of gray divorce. She was in her early 20s when her parents split. After Laura untied her own marital knot, her kids’ well-being was top of mind.

LAURA:  13:48
I did date, but I didn't want to introduce them to anyone until I knew it was a serious relationship. I just felt that was extremely important -- that they didn't, they didn't need to know. They didn't need to get involved until it was going to be serious.

LAURA STASSI: 14:04
Then Laura met someone through her cycling group. They started hanging out together, and their friendship evolved into romance.

LAURA:  14:11
We were both divorced around the same amount of time. So it probably at that point had been around six or seven years that he had been divorced. He's 10 years older than me, and his kids are about 10 years older than my kids.

LAURA STASSI: 14:24
So you all you – you had been friends and then it developed into a relationship, it sounds like. Did it get serious quickly? Were you talking about marriage and that kind of thing?

LAURA:  14:34
Um, it got serious. But we weren't talking about marriage, and we weren't talking about the next steps. I think after three years, I was kind of like okay, are we going to the next step? And what is that next step? Or what's this looking like? And he wasn't thinking there. He's like, no, this is – we’re fine here.

LAURA STASSI: 14:51
Did you know his kids, and did he know your kids?

LAURA:   14:53
We knew each other's kids. But there wasn't intentional sort of, hey, I'm going to include you in events --because his kids weren't close by; my kids were kind of aah, they’re teenage boys, aah. So we really weren't formally including.

LAURA STASSI: Okay.

LAURA:  So yeah. So he -- I wasn't included in like, family birthday events. If there was some event where somebody had a birthday? No, not included. Or if there was something, if they were visiting, they, he and his daughter would go to lunch without me -- which, I’m like okay, all right. She's in town just for a little bit, okay. You know. But when does that come that point where you're … like …

LAURA STASSI: … When you get included.

LAURA: Yeah. Is it just -- yeah. Or like the son graduated from graduate school, I was not included.

LAURA STASSI: Hmm.

LAURA: And we were we were very slow and cautious about it but yeah, for three years. And I think, you know, when kids are off whatever doing their own thing, but when they would be in town? Yeah, it's like, hmm. Hmm!

LAURA STASSI: 16:07
And you mentioned that you had asked him to be your medical power of attorney.

LAURA :  Right.

LAURA STASSI: Okay. Can you unpack that a little bit? Because I'm thinking, okay, this is -- you weren't living together. You were in a committed relationship, but you sensed this hesitation. So I'm wondering if you asked him to sort of test the waters?

LAURA:  16:26
I guess I thought the relationship was at that stage where you -- that that's who I would want to be there; when it, you know, when you know me really well. And so he's like, yeah, you know, because like when you fill out those forms at the office, who's that emergency contact? And like I said, I have three boys, and one of them doesn't answer his texts ever. You know, who's gonna pick up the phone? And so yeah, I did ask him to be because one of my kids had actually had a very serious accident and almost died. And so it's like, okay, you know, this can happen. And he said yes, but then it wasn't reciprocated.

LAURA STASSI: 17:09
It sounds like his kids were not the reason why he didn't want to commit.

LAURA:  17:14
You know, I'm not 100 percent sure on that either, Laura. Because there was one time there was a dinner, and one of the kids did not attend a dinner because my kids were there. And I was like, oh -- and I think it was it was a celebration. And we were going to try and have, you know, some of the kids together; somebody -- a celebration of a new job or something. And they just were like, oh; they were like, I didn't realize Laura's kids are going to be there. So I was like, oh, well what was that about? What's that about? You know, and it was just never really discussed. It was like, oh, that's just the way that person is. And it’s like, what are we doing here? So I felt like maybe there was still one of the kids, even though they were -- I mean, this is just what I, that I felt like. They just weren't ready for their dad to date again, maybe.

LAURA STASSI: 18:12
Laura wasn't getting what she wanted, so she made a clean break. Shortly after that came the COVID-19 lockdown. Laura had a lot of time to think. Over the next several months, and with the help of a therapist, she crafted -- let's call it a relationship vision statement. Then she reached out to her former friend turned lover, and they met to discuss possible next steps.

LAURA:  18:33
He and I talked about what had to happen and what were the things. You know, it had to be clear, it couldn't be, “I’ll think about it,” or “I'll get back to you.” It had to be clear, like within 30 days, there's the power of attorney; by the end of the year, living together. I had a co-worker that she -- she's been in a relationship for 15,17 years, something like that. They'll never live together because there's one kid in each of their families that says absolutely not. So there, you're giving the power to the kids. And I was like, I'm not doing that. We're not doing that. So I didn't know for sure if there was a kid that had power. But that wasn't -- I was like, if that's what's happening, we're out.

LAURA STASSI: 19:23
There are so many different iterations now of what commitment looks like, and some people don't want to live together 24/7. But for you, it was important to live together.

LAURA:  19:32
Yeah. And maybe it comes back to love languages because I'm around the quality time. So that was my definition.

LAURA STASSI: 19:39
How did you talk about this with the kids? So all the kids are on their own, no kids are living with you.

LAURA:  Yeah. And he had to tell his kids first that because it was kind of, I felt like he hadn't really had that conversation. And I think he said that the relationship was going to move forward. And I think they, from what I understand, they're like yeah. So, you know, and I told my kids too. And I kind of got a yeah. So I think we maybe worry a little bit more about it than they do, possibly. But I just I didn't want any surprises with the kids either. And I remember telling them, you know, “We're going to be moving forward, we're going to be moving in together, we're going to be buying a house together. I didn't want to be alone the rest of my life and you've met him. He's a wonderful person.” So yeah, it was, it was all good.

It's never going to be like this Norman Rockwell, right? They were raised differently in different homes. It was different circumstances how the divorce ended. Mine was not as amicable as his was. We also did do not this last summer, but the summer before, we did do a vacation of everybody. And it went really, really well. We hope to do that, again. Blending families, it's -- these are adults, they’re on their own, it's going to be a lot. This is going to take years. So we're not going to rush it.

LAURA STASSI: 21:02
Living together is important to Laura but being legally married is not. And remember her partner's kid who didn't join the family group dinner? Laura says she's come to understand that maybe they were going through their own stuff, and the absence had nothing to do with how they felt about Laura. So while the lockdown forced solitude, it seems to have eventually led to a better place for Laura and her relationship.

Speaking of the pandemic, according to one study, the coronavirus led to about 32 percent of millennials and Gen Z-ers moving back in with their parents. One of mine did. Let's call her Sunny. She’s in her late 20s but full disclosure, her move wasn't precipitated by COVID-19. She was relocating to the East Coast for personal reasons after about eight years in the Pacific Northwest, and she was with me for only a few months. Sunny and I are both uncoupled and as it turns out, we were both taking a stab at online dating. I thought she could offer some help, and she was game to talk on tape. So one night, I read her a message I'd received from an online suitor and asked for her reaction.

LAURA STASSI: He wrote, “Ha, I never thought of that problem. I get the same exact thing from BWI. The reason we connected is that I'm in Rockville through today for training, and my company HQ is in Reston. Although I never go there, and the quotes, and you're adorable. Those are the reasons, I think.”

SUNNY: Okay.

LAURA STASSI: I thought it was funny, no?

SUNNY: Yeah, yeah, that's good.

LAURA STASSI: You didn't -- I laughed out loud.

SUNNY: I think I have to read it. Can I?

LAURA STASSI: Yeah, yeah.

SUNNY:  Yeah. (Reading) “I never thought of that problem. I get the same exact thing.” Okay. The exclamation helps.

LAURA STASSI: Okay. (Laughter)

SUNNY: (Continues reading) “My company HQ … I never go there, and the quotes, and you're adorable.” Okay, yeah, that's pretty nice.

LAURA STASSI: Okay, so …

SUNNY: That's effort.

LAURA STASSI: So did you have any negative female reaction to “adorable,” at our age?

SUNNY: At our age?

(Laughter)

LAURA STASSI: At my age. I mean, I didn’t, but I didn't know whether adorable would be considered …

SUNNY: How old is he?

LAURA STASSI: He's my age.

SUNNY:  No, that's fine.

LAURA STASSI: Okay.

SUNNY: Can I see a picture of him?

LAURA STASSI: Well, hold on a second. Then I wrote, “Yes, traffic stinks. Next time, I can't offer you a place to stay. But happy to meet you for a walk and talk.”

SUNNY: Okay.

LAURA: He wrote. “Hah, I was thinking I would move some of my stuff in.”

(LAUGHTER)

LAURA STASSI: That's good, right?

SUNNY: Yeah.

LAURA STASSI: He still lives really far away, though. Let me just show you his picture.

SUNNY:  Okay. Uh, how do I -- how do I look at all of them?

LAURA STASSI: Just scroll.

SUNNY: Okay, I see.

LAURA STASSI: We had to cut it short because Sunny had other plans. But a few days later, we continued our conversation. Her cat wasn't too happy about it; you may hear it in the background. I asked Sunny if it felt weird to be living with me again.

SUNNY: No, I don't think it's a weird thing. I think it's kind of fun that we can both relate, that we're not in similar stages of life, but maybe kind of a similar transition.

LAURA STASSI: You're temporarily living with me. You did not know what your full-time situation would be. But you knew it was going to be a temporary thing. But we didn't know how long it was going to last and as it turns out, you're gonna be -- I think by the time this airs, you will be in your house of your own. So try to think back when you -- when we first sort of made this agreement. Did you know then that you would be dating or trying to date?

SUNNY: Mmm, it wasn't a priority that I would be dating. I think I approached it more so thinking that I'll need an easy entrance into having a social life again, in a place where I don't really know many people anymore. So that's kind of how I was looking at it, just to kind of shake up my friend group, meet some new people. So.

LAURA STASSI: Mm-hmm.

SUNNY: But I wasn't like, I'm going to be finding a partner while I live with my mom.

(LAUGHTER)

LAURA STASSI: Did you have any thoughts about whether I would be on a dating site, what that might mean for you?

SUNNY: I thought you might be on a dating site, but I didn't think that I would be like, subjected to you bringing people over. I mean, I -- that never made me uncomfortable either. Because our dating lives are very separate from our lives when we're at home together.

LAURA STASSI: Okay, go on.

SUNNY: Well, I do remember we had an agreement that was prompted by you, just where you were like, “Hey, just so we're on the same page: Nobody's bringing over anybody for slumber parties.” That helped me relax …

LAURA STASSI: Oh.

SUNNY …because I was afraid.

LAURA STASSI: You were afraid …

SUNNY: I was afraid that I would have to share a wall with you and your lover.

(LAUGHTER)

LAURA STASSI:
All right, I think you're being sarcastic. But that would be weird, wouldn’t it?

SUNNY: Yeah, that'd be weird. If I didn't know the guy, yeah.

LAURA STASSI: So you and I happen to both be on dating sites.

SUNNY: Mm-hmm.

LAURA STASSI: Do you have any thoughts on the one you chose vs. the one I chose?

SUNNY: The one you chose confuses me. I don't know how to use it. I, I don't like those constraints of it.

LAURA STASSI: When it comes down to it, it really is just flicking through pictures, isn't it?

SUNNY: Yeah, I agree.

LAURA STASSI: You told me something ... so I have a terrible sense of direction. Swiping right means you're interested. Swiping left means no. But okay, if anybody wants to try this at home, when you swipe right, your finger starts at the left. And that's what confuses me. And so you gave me a great tip.

SUNNY: Yeah, you're just putting them in different buckets. But yeah, I mean, to anyone out there who's about to realize that they've been swiping the wrong way all this time, as Laura Stassi was.

LAURA STASSI: I was, totally. So you said like, think of it as piles. And the pile to the left is the bad, you know, the reject pile, for lack of a better word. And the pile to the right, is the pile that you're interested in.

SUNNY: I'm really interested, I don't suspect that this will be that common of a problem people are having, but I'm interested to find out.

LAURA STASSI: Aside from my directional issues, do you have any thoughts on things I might be doing wrong and things I might be doing right?

SUNNY: Okay. So that one night when we looked at your dating app together…

LAURA STASSI: Yeah…

SUNNY: I would say, you're leading with too many words.

LAURA STASSI: Hmm.

SUNNY: Like you were kind of saying like, you know, these apps are also photo-based, and I would say, work with that. And you can -- you could, you know, you could even just look at the photos of a profile and still be thoughtful about …

LAURA STASSI: You really think so?

SUNNY: Who you’re interested in, yeah. I think you can tell a lot about a person based on which pictures of themselves they choose.

LAURA STASSI: Okay, so tell me how you translate that into your dating life?

SUNNY: No mirror selfies.

LAURA STASSI: No mirror selfies …

SUNNY: Doesn’t matter what's written. Uh, what else?

LAURA STASSI: 28:38

How about selfies in general?

SUNNY: Selfies in general? Like if some, like, am I against them?

LAURA STASSI: Yeah. Because it seems to me -- it feels to me like if somebody only has selfies in their profile, that means they couldn't get anybody to take a picture of them.

SUNNY: Yeah, they’re never doing stuff with people around.

LAURA STASSI: Yeah, yeah.

SUNNY: Hmm, that's a good point. If it's like only like really close-up pictures of their face too, that's concerning. I think people probably just have some more baggage at your age, or marriages and children than people at my age. But I think other than that, I'm tempted to say it's pretty similar. Basic like, good behaviors, bad behaviors.

LAURA STASSI: Hmm, good behaviors, bad behaviors.

SUNNY: Just like you know, if somebody is very thoughtful about making a plan and is very communicative or like vs. somebody trying to make a plan with them is like pulling teeth. I think those probably occur with the same frequency across age groups.

LAURA STASSI: What are you looking for?

SUNNY: Be more specific. What do you mean?

LAURA STASSI: I mean, do you want a committed partner?

SUNNY: Eventually. I think we talked about this a little bit when I was looking for a house. I was lucky that – or, I am lucky that I've been able to live at your house in the meantime, while I've been searching. And I was kind of saying to you like I don't want to, you know, make this huge commitment unless I just can't believe my luck. And I feel the same way about dating.

LAURA STASSI: 30:21
Sunny -- gone too soon, out of my house and into one of her own, about 100 miles away. Oh, well, that's closer than the Pacific Northwest. Sunny is so excited about her new place and believes it might be her forever home. I'm her mom so of course, I'm happy for her. But like a lot of other single parents, I have learned that huge commitments don't necessarily last forever.

END CREDITS: Dating While Gray is produced in partnership with North Carolina Public Radio. For more on the show, check out datingwhilegray.com That's also where you can find links for sending voicemails and emails. I'd love to hear from you. I'm Laura Stassi. Thanks for listening