LAURA STASSI: 00:07
This is “Dating While Gray: The Grown-Up’s Guide to Love, Sex, and Relationships.” I'm Laura Stassi and when it comes to romance, older does not necessarily mean wiser. This is Part 2 of Dating 101 and on this episode, we’re covering “The First Date.”
I've heard a lot of uncomfortable stories about first dates. Is it a coincidence they've all been from women?
AMY SCHOEN 00:39
So I do call them my sweet, clueless men. They don't know any better. Oh, I can't tell you how many times I've had to help them.
LAURA: That's dating and relationship coach Amy Schoen.
AMY: 00:53
You know, we were raised where, you know, there was more traditional kind of dating. And we have these expectations. And I think a man wants to feel like -- you know, he wants to treat a woman nicely. And we want to feel that way. But not everybody is -- how can I say – assertive, or people don't have certain skills. So what I hear is, “Oh, he should really plan something.”
LAURA: 01:18
And men, I promise, we're not picking on you. But I have to say, some of us older women interested in older men are really confused by behaviors we're encountering. So I've asked Amy to weigh in to help all of us out.
First, we're going to hear from Paulina. She's in her early 50s, has a daughter, and she was married when she came to the United States from Chile over a dozen years ago. Now that she's divorced, she can't figure out if dating is different because she's older or because she's dating Americans. Sometimes Paulina can't even figure out if she's actually on a date.
PAULINA: 01:58
This gentleman, I met him on a Meetup group. Super, super nice guy; much, much older than me. I met him like 10 years ago. And I always remembered him. Like, I've met him in an industry related event. And then I didn't see him for 10 years. And then I met him again in this Meetup group. And he's always been very, very attentive and very nice. I mean, very decent, very nice. We were kind of talking about going out for drinks one day, and I never really thought much about it. And so I mean, I never thought it was going to be a date because he said, “Oh, we should go together to have some drinks.” And we kind of texted about it on like, throughout a couple of months, nothing really intensive. So one day I called him up on that. I said, “Why don't we go have drinks tonight?” And so yeah, we met together, we met -- some drinks. It happened that he had not had dinner. So he actually had a full dinner, and I only had a glass of wine. And he paid. I believe -- I insisted to pay the tip. So I didn't really think too much about it. If it had been a date that probably would not have offended him, because that would be a little bit offensive in the Latin American country that the women would pay.
LAURA: 03:06
Okay, so stop right there. That is an interesting point. Can you say that again?
(Laughter)
LAURA: Because that is a big difference, I think.
PAULINA: Yes. So let me let me put it into context. A woman will make everything possible to look good. She will put her money and energy to have her hair well done, be well-dressed, with her nails done. That is the way that she can contribute to the expectations. The man cannot do that. His way to show up, like care -- that he cares about this date, really, is: He pays for it. I mean, in that he -- it doesn't have to be anything expensive, but it's just a token of appreciation about the good time that he's planning to have. So I would not, if I was in Chile, I would never even open my wallet. Because that is kind of saying, it's kind of signaling two things: that you do not want to have a date; you don't consider this as a date.
LAURA: Like, you don't have a romantic intention.
PAULINA: Yes.
LAURA: Yeah, OK.
PAULINA: Or, it's kind of offensive. Like, he doesn't have the money. So well, anyway, so we paid and then he walked me to my car, which was really nice. I appreciated that. But when he went into my car, he tried to kiss me.
LAURA: Laughter
PAULINA: I was like, okay, oh, you meant a date. And I was like, oh, why didn't he use his words? Why wasn’t he more clear?
LAURA: “Use his words” -- I like the way Paulina put that. She told me about another man she met organically. He asked her out for dinner.
PAULINA: It had all the markings of a date
LAURA: All the markings of a date – okay, tell me. Because?
PAULINA: 04:49
Because well, because also I also know him from a group and then, I was romantically curious. We are more or less the same age, and he's educated. And he knows the world and has traveled, and so he knows where Chile is, which is one of my, my fundamentals. It looked like – he told me, he picked out the place, he picked out the time. So we met there. So that one of the first things he mentioned was, he was out of a job. And I knew he was looking, he was in between jobs, but they also know he doesn't really have money problems. So I didn't think too much of it. But then I thought, well, since he told me that, I'm going to offer to pay for my meal. And then he talked a lot. I mean, I don't think he asked me anything.
LAURA: 05:31
So wait a minute. During the date, he said to you that he was having money – like, he didn't have a job? Like …
PAULINA: 05:38
Yeah. And I thought well, okay. I thought, if that was the case, I would not have gone to this restaurant. I probably would have gone to Applebee's or something. Anyway, it's -- I just find it odd that he mentioned it right away. And then …
LAURA: Yeah.
PAULINA: … there were some things that kind of started signaling that probably this wasn't a date, probably it was just friends eating together. I just thought, okay, totally fine. Because he wasn't really asking me things. He was talking a lot about himself. And maybe he just needed to rant or whatever. And then when the check came, I kind of -- the woman asked if it's going to be two separate checks, or one and I kind of said, well, it's probably two. And he was like, “Yeah, it’s two.”
LAURA: (Gasps)
PAULINA: And then he didn't walk me to my car. So what's that? What's the difference between just two grownups having dinner and a date, really? I said, “Okay, Paulina, my fault.” I thought this was a date. This was never meant to be a date. But the funny thing is that two days later, he asked me for another one.
LAURA: I asked Amy Schoen if there was anything Paulina could have done to get some clarity.
AMY: 06:49
Well, if you're not sure, I mean, you can do it in a kind of a fun way and say, “Well, I'm not sure. Is this a date or is this, are we just going out as friends?” You know, get some clarity around it. And if the guy hems and haws, I mean, the right guy, the guy was like, “Yeah, a date.” But the wrong guy will say, “What are you talking about?” (Mumbles, laughter) They'll get a little, they'll get a little tongue-tied. So yeah, you want clarity. Right?
LAURA: Yeah.
AMY: And then you can, you know, you have to express your goals and to say, you know, “I'm looking for a serious, committed relationship.” We're not talking about marriage, we're talking dinner. I do tell my clients to slow up the process.
LAURA: 07:37
I -- this is the age-old question, but I have to bring it up again. Who pays on the first date?
AMY: 07:45
Well, this is the official answer, according to -- I don't know, like the dating gurus: The person who asks, pays. But honestly, most women would expect a man to offer to pay. Now, today, a lot depends on relative incomes and situations. And so if a man is not making that much money, then the woman may offer to pay for the tip. Or if you're doing something afterwards, or “Let me pitch in.” And a guy could say, “Oh, thank you,” or “No, I got this; you get the next one.” You know, we have to be sensitive, because people have different income situations. People who are retiring are more careful about their money, but not you know, I mean, there are very generous people all around. I think it's about the generosity. So even if you go for a cup of coffee. I hear these women, that the guy comes and he gets his coffee, and he’s sitting there waiting for the woman and says, “Oh, I’ll wait while you get your coffee.”
LAURA: (Laughter)
AMY: That's a trick.
LAURA: 08:57
And how do you feel about that, as a dating coach? What would you tell that man, would you tell him to get his coffee ahead of time?
AMY: 09:03
No. And it shows that he's not generous. And “If you can't afford a cup of coffee,” most women will say, “you can't afford me.” (Laughter)
I had a guy client who told me, he goes, “I hate planning. It's not my thing.” And so, you know, I had to coach him and what the, you know, he had to ask her and say, “Listen, this is not something I really enjoy doing. Can we share in this responsibility?” But then women think oh, he's not a man because he's not planning. It’s a skill.
LAURA: Hmm. Yeah, so it sounds like we might not be cutting -- women might not be cutting men enough leeway. And men might be kind of second-guessing themselves sometimes, it sounds like.
AMY: I think they they're scared. They're scared. They don't want to make a mistake. They want to be -- you know, and they want to come across well.
LAURA: Thanks for the insights, Amy. As for Paulina, she did go out with her dinner companion a second time. And guess what? The same thing happened: They split the bill, and he did not walk her to her car. So when he asked her out a third time, Paulina said no thanks. She thinks he is interested in her romantically and just doesn't know how to express it. But now she thinks of him as just a friend.
We're going to hear more first-date dilemmas, and more from Coach Amy Schoen. That's after the break.
BREAK
LAURA: This awkward first-date story comes from Glyn, who lives in North Carolina. You heard her on Episode 5, talking about striking out with online dating mainly because she couldn't get past what she was seeing in the backgrounds of the profile photos she was coming across.
GLYN: It's the bed and the urinals. I've just had several of them. And I couldn't believe that anybody would not think that was kind of weird.
LAURA: Glyn did have a first date recently, and she had high hopes for it because it was arranged by a matchmaking service.
GLYN: 11:21
I don't -- I haven't always trusted my gut with this because I'm so rusty at dating. I thought, well, this will be a much smoother, professional way to go about finding love.
LAURA: 11:34
But it sounds like her date was clueless about making a good first impression.
GLYN: 11:39
He misbehaved so badly. He was nice enough to me. But he started by saying -- you know, we're in a restaurant -- would I like to order anything? And I said, you know, what are you going to have? And he said, let's get some garlic fries, french fries. I said, okay, and we both ordered a drink. And so I might took maybe one or two fries while he was just wolfing down these garlic fries. And I wanted to call the waitress over and just order something else, because I just didn't want to sit there and eat garlic fries.
And when I said something and the waitress came over, he yelled at her that we did not want to order anything else. And she was very young, and she just backed away. And, and I was the one who got her attention, and I was the one who was going to order. And I was going to pay for what I ordered. And I think he was so worried I was going to order something expensive. And he didn't know me. But to treat someone young, who's working, yell at them in front of me -- and I've just met him -- was very uncomfortable.
LAURA: 13:10
I have to say, garlic fries sound delicious, but probably not a wise choice from an olfactory perspective. And then this happened.
GLYN: 13:21
I don't even know how to say this. He passed gas so badly. I would have said, “Oh, just a second!” I would have made up something, and I would have jumped and run away from the table. I mean, it was, and I had to pretend like it didn't happen. And I'm looking at this person, and he's looking at me like a deer in headlights, because he knows.
LAURA: Oh.
GLYN: And I was not about to say anything. I mean, we're human, and all humans -- you know, we have all these systems and they’ve got to work. But it was so terrible. And I felt as if, why would he do that? Why wouldn't he just jump up and go to the bathroom?
If I had known him better, and he was like, “Oh my gosh, my stomach has been hurting me all day. I am so sorry.” But he pretended like it didn't happen. He didn't say, “Excuse me.” I mean, there was no, you know, “Sorry about that toot!” I mean, there are ways to do -- there are ways to apologize without it and then even being a -- having a sense of humor about it. But he said nothing.
LAURA: I know that was unpleasant for Gyn, but I kind of feel sorry for her date. Let's hear what Amy has to say.
AMY: The first date is really, what are you assessing? You're assessing, do I like this person? Is there – am I somewhat attracted? I say, not repulsed. And does the conversation flow? And if you say yes, then if he asks you on a second date, I would go on a second date just to explore. Because the first date can be awkward. And some people just, you know, sometimes it takes a while -- my more introverted clients, it takes them longer to show their soft underbelly.
LAURA: 15:17
If you're a woman, and you're in a situation where the man seems to be like, taking charge, how can you kind of push back on that so that it's a pleasant experience for you?
AMY: 15:29
Um, you know, a lot depends on your personality. So, you know, there are people who are very timid, and there are people who are not so shy. So if you're hungry and all you got is garlic fries -- I mean, first of all, I would say, “Listen, I don't eat carbs.” Because I don't eat carbs. I would just say, “I'm glad you like garlic fries. You know what? My preference is this. I'm happy to pay for myself.”
LAURA: 15:58
Yeah. So just be, you know -- why I think it's very hard for all of us. Not just me, but it's very hard to kind of speak up when, you know, to assert yourself in a …
AMY: 16:09
Nice way, yes. So yeah, my opinion is, the right people will be okay with it. And the wrong people will get upset about it. I mean, I have a thing about where I sit in a restaurant. And I remember one boyfriend going crazy because I was like, “Can we sit here and not there?” Because, you know, I care about the view and that I'm not next to the kitchen or where they're putting the dirty dishes, and maybe it's loud music. I don't know. So you know, I change tables. And I remember one boyfriend, I'm sure he hated it. I could tell. And you know, my husband just goes with the flow. Just like, “Okay, do what she says.”
LAURA: No surprise, when it came to this particular man, Glyn was one date and done. It wasn't just the way he behaved. Glyn realized through their conversation that they had nothing in common. In fact, it was such a miss that Glyn was able to cancel her contract with the matchmaking service. Let's hope there's better luck for Glyn next time around.
Finally, one of the most eye-opening stories I've heard about a date gone wrong comes from this woman.
PAULA: My name is Paula. I live in Colorado. I've been widowed for 15 -- little over 15 years now. I was 47. So yeah, it wasn't in the plan. He -- my husband died of a brain aneurysm. So it was very sudden. And we were together for 22 years, so -- and I liked him. Not everybody likes their husband. I really liked him. And so yeah, it was it was rough.
LAURA: Eventually, Paula decided to start dating. She went online. And then there was that time her friend Dave played matchmaker. Dave’s a house painter. That's how he met Paula. And for this impromptu matchmaking, he paired Paula with another client of his that we're calling Jim.
PAULA: So Dave said that the longer he spent with Jim, he thought, “Wow, this, this person, this guy's great for Paula.” And he said, “I showed him your picture on Facebook, and he's very interested, and would you like to go out with him?” And you know, his kids are grown, and they live in California, and he has --he still, he's only working part time and with a big firm in our town. And he's well-traveled, and he has the means. And I was like, oh, yeah, so I looked him up. And he's cute. Yeah, you know, sure. We went out for cocktails. And I should never have three martinis over even a week-long period.
LAURA: So you've had three martinis. But after -- you see him and you're like, Oh, my goodness.
PAULA: Yeah, he's a great date. He's very personable, he’s fun. We were totally hitting it off. And it was like a four-hour date. So we were -- we were listening to music, we were -- you know, so everything was good.
LAURA: Paula got herself home safely and went to sleep. She woke up the next morning to a text from her friend Dave.
PAULA: 19:02
He didn't say, “How was your date?” He said, “Are you okay?” And I wrote back, and I said, “I'm fine. You did great. He's like, he's awesome. Like, we're, you know, we're gonna go out again.” And so I was I wasn't sure why he asked me if I was okay. I just -- it was weird.
LAURA: 19:17
That got Paula thinking about her date with Jim and what they had talked about. She remembered asking Jim why his 30-year marriage ended.
PAULA: 19:26
He told me that his wife had wanted to try going to swingers clubs, and he didn't want any part of it. And so he got -- they got divorced. Okay, reasonable. I know. Fine.
LAURA: Paula also had a faint memory of a question Jim had asked her. But it seemed so outrageous, could it actually have happened? After mulling it over for a bit and deciding this was a conversation best had in person, Paula contacted Jim and asked if they could get together and talk. But Jim had a really busy week ahead of him, so he asked if she wouldn't mind waiting until their date. Paula said, okay.
PAULA: So we go out to this concert venue, we're sitting on a wall outside, we get a drink. And I want to ask him right away if he had asked me this question, or did I dream it? Or did I, you know, what, where did that come from? I said, “I know I got pretty drunk, and I was probably should not have had that third martini.” But I said, “Did you ask me how my bleep was shaved?” And, and he looked at me and he said, “I did.” And I said, “What did I say?” And he told me that I'd be lucky to ever find out. If you know, because after you asked me that, like, rude question. and I said, Oh, good. You know, Tipsy Paula was the same as sober Paula. I would have, you know, told him off. And I said, “What in the world possessed you as an …” I think I was 50. Let's see, I was 56, then are 57. And he was 61. So “What possessed you at 61 to ask a woman that question?”
LAURA: Right.
PAULA: And he said, well, you know, I tried that swinging thing for 18 months. And that's the kind of question you ask a woman before you're gonna have sex with her.
LAURA: 21:05
Oh, so now you get that he actually went to the swinging clubs with his ex-wife.
PAULA: 21:09
So trying it. I mean, I can see if you tried it and didn't like it, but you don't try anything for 18 months. You're in, you're in. It's like, you're into the whole … And yeah, and I found out that his wife had left him for a guy she met at the swingers clubs, and that's why they were divorced.
LAURA: Okay.
PAULA: It wasn't like he decided it was disgusting and he couldn't do it anymore. He was totally fine with it.
LAURA: 21:30
And there's nothing wrong with swinging as long as both people are into it.
PAULA: Exactly. But he lied.
LAURA: Yeah. And I would venture to say, there is something wrong with asking somebody that question on the first date.
PAULA: Yeah, he hadn't been on a date. He said I was his first date after his divorce. And that's the kind of you know, he wasn't used to the small talk. And I said, “Well, that's completely inappropriate.” And I said, you know, any, and he goes, “Well, what should I have said?” I said, “Well, first of all, either make up a story, you and your wife drifted apart,” whatever it was. I said, “But you told me that you didn't want any part of the swinging thing. And so I'm more mad about the lie. Had you told me like, I tried it. I didn't like it, whatever.” But I said, “You lied about it. You said you didn't want any part of it.” And I said, “So now I'm going to ask you to drive me home.” So he did. And it was very awkward. It was a 20-minute drive home -- and silence. And he said, you know, “What should I say going forward?” I said, “That's not my problem. That's a you problem.”
LAURA: Asking a crude question, and evading the truth about an open marriage, were not the only blunders Jim made on that first date.
PAULA: Our date was over within an hour. And he said, “Will you tell Dave? I think you're closer to him.” I said, “Sure. And I'm not gonna give him any details.” So I came home. And I texted Dave, and I said, “Hey, just want to let you know, Jim and I aren't gonna see each other anymore. But you did great.” And he said, “I'm coming over.” So I, you know, Friday night, I didn't know. I thought, why is he coming over? And he goes, “I'll be right there.” So he drove down to my house, and he just handed me his phone. And he showed me all the texts that Jim was sending him on our first date about his thoughts about me. And I'll just say, they were not PG- or R-rated. And Dave and his wife, his wife is going, “Go get her! Get her out of that bar!” And he's like, “She's from L.A., she can take care of herself if she wanted to get out of it.” So he was just, just, you know, he was disgusting. And it was so disappointing.
LAURA: Well, it's also very juvenile.
PAULA: Exactly.
LAURA: I mean, texting while you're on a date. What's that all about?
PAULA: I did have to go to the bathroom a lot, because I was drinking a lot of water while I was drinking the martinis. So I think I used the bathroom, you know, fairly easily four times in that four hours. And so I guess during those times, or when he would go to the bathroom, he would text Dave his honest-to-goodness thoughts about you know, how he thought the date was going.
LAURA: 23:53
Thanks, Paula, for sharing. We're sorry you went through that. We don't need an expert to point out the many ways that date went wrong. Now, Paula says she had too much to drink. But I did ask Amy what she thought about drinks and dinner as a first date.
AMY: 24:08
I really liked day dates, personally, you know, afternoon -- or if you know them, if you've known them, you met them before, you've had a conversation. Let's say for instance, one of my clients, she went on a hiking Meet up, you know. And she got to talk to the guy out during the hike, and I'm sure he asked her out again. And so maybe they did go to dinner. I can't remember what the first real date was. But that's fine. I mean, you kind of got a sense of the person and you want to definitely do something that feels like you know, almost daylight, you know, in a well-lit area where there's a lot of people, and you feel comfortable. You don't want -- I would not recommend going to his house for him to make you dinner.
LAURA: 24:53
I'm laughing but I guess people -- that has happened before, right?
AMY: I have had very intelligent women -- this woman was a lawyer. She did it and regretted it afterwards.
LAURA: 25:08
My thanks to dating and relationship coach Amy Schoen, and to the listeners who shared their stories. And men, this episode is ending, but it's not too late to share your side of a bad first-date story. Or maybe have a question about how to show someone you're interested? Write me at datingwhilegray@ wunc.org. And I promise I'll dig into it for you. We're all in this together, after all. Besides, first dates are like first impressions. Sometimes you don't get a second chance at a good one.
END CREDITS
Dating While Gray is produced in partnership with North Carolina Public Radio. For more on the show, check out datingwhilegray.com That's also where you can find links for sending voicemails and emails. I'd love to hear from you. I'm Laura Stassi. Thanks for listening.