AMY SCHOEN: 00:09
You need to have a good profile to attract the right person. And that's what I do is, I help people make sure they put the right information. That's if the guy reads your profile.
LAURA STASSI: Yeah.
Soundbite of laughter
AMY: And you need a decent picture in order to attract a man to look at your profile. So a guy who's motivated is gonna read your profile.
ANN MAAS: 00:30
Often you want to show you with your grandchild. As cute as that is, I'll say ladies, do you really want that man to think of you as a grandmother? And you know what, you can mention you’re a grandmother in your profile. And then when you're on the date, you can always pull up those photos. But on your profile, you're not the grandmother. You're you.
LAURA: 00:55
This is “Dating While Gray: The Grown-Up’s Guide to Love, Sex, and Relationships.” I'm Laura Stassi. We've explored some fairly complicated topics on this podcast. But after hearing from listeners, I think it's time to circle back to the basics. On this episode, it's “Dating 101: The Online Profile.”
If you want a humorous look at dating apps and older gay men, I can recommend Neil Patrick Harris’s Netflix series “Uncoupled.” But on this episode, we're talking only about heterosexual dating because that's what I know.
If you've ever put together an online dating profile, you know it basically goes like this: You write a short paragraph to introduce yourself and pair it with a photo. And that becomes – well, think of it as your cover, and you’re a book. And people will be judging your book by its cover. So you want your write-up to be intriguing, and you want your photo to be flattering. You're aiming to entice people as they scroll through all the covers to click on yours. And when they do, they'll find out more -- like your favorite activities, maybe your hobbies or religious and political beliefs, plus additional photos. And hopefully, that will motivate them to connect.
Here are two listeners weighing in on profiles that won them over because the book matched the cover.
JULIE: 02:30
My name is Julie, and I got divorced seven years ago, and have been on and off online dating for the past five years. Happily, I'm in a new budding relationship as of several months ago, with a lovely man who I met online. The reason he really was able to garner my attention is because of the green flags in his profile. His photos showed him in an everyday life: dressed for work, dressed when he was working out or just hanging out not doing much of anything. And most importantly, he approached me with respect. His initial message to me was so kind and so respectful that it really stood out from the clutter out there of all the other nonsense one finds in online dating.
LINDA: Hi Laura, it's Linda. And I want to offer a green light, and that is when in his well-written profile, he says something adoring or really loving about members of his family, especially his kids. I love that.
LAURA: 03:46
Ah, but then there are profiles like this one.
GLYN: 03:53
My name is Glyn, and I am from Chapel Hill, N.C. I've been divorced about eight years. And I decided last summer that I would dip my toe into trying to date again. I've gotten coaching that's helped me understand how to curate the background, listen, to learn, ask open-ended questions so that maybe I come across better.
I've had a couple of men take pictures of themselves with their head on their pillow, and they're under their covers.
LAURA: Eww.
GLYN: And that's not -- that's not a good way to come across. And I've had a couple of other men where they're, they're obviously looking in a mirror to see how they look. But they're not looking at the background, so you can see a row of urinals.
LAURA: (Laughter)
GLYN: And you know, I kept wondering if someone had come in and started going to the bathroom, would they even notice? I had someone this weekend, contact me. And he was writing about how we could get cozy under a blanket and do whatever we felt like. And again, it just doesn't seem as if they've thought through how that would sound to somebody else.
LAURA: 05:21
Have you had any relationships through online dating?
GLYN: Not one.
LAURA: I'm sorry, Glyn, for laughing. But it was in solidarity, because haven't we all come across at least one profile that's so cringe-worthy, it's comical? You heard Glyn say she got coaching to learn how to best present herself online. And that brings me to Karen.
KAREN: 05:45
But when I read some men's profiles, they're so interesting. They're so nice. It's like I – you’re interesting, I want to talk to you. Why aren't you calling me? (Laughter) We have things to talk about.
LAURA: 06:00
Karen is 64, lives in California. And she's been on and off the dating sites since she got divorced at age 50. She wrote me asking for help with her online profile because she's getting attention, but not necessarily the kind she wants.
KAREN: 06:14
I feel like they're not even paying attention, that they just hit the like button, honestly. Because if you read my full profile, which is three short paragraphs -- it's not that much to read. It says that, you know, you should live in San Luis Obispo; you should smile in your pictures; you know, you should be aware and interested in the world around you. And I just, you know, I get responses -- well, that just hit the like button and don't say anything, or their pictures are just really bad. Like I mentioned, you know, the selfies where they're not smiling and, or in the bathroom. I mean, all these things that you know, sites tell you not to do. It's like they haven't put any effort into it. So every once in a while, I'll get somebody. but I don't know, I don't get that many. I feel like I've hit a lot of likes, and I don't get a lot of reciprocal likes.
LAURA: 07:06
Do you have an age range that you look for?
KAREN: 07:09
I don't know. Not over 70. Not too far under 60. Because like I mentioned, men under 64 are not looking for women 64 -- or at least, that has not been my experience. So. So you know, 10 years, I guess, five years either way, give or take.
LAURA: Okay.
KAREN: Yeah. I mean, I know some really fun, healthy, 72-year-old men that would be fun. But you know, the ones you see on the screens are not always looking like they'd be so fun. I have a good friend who just went online just this weekend. And she’s like, should I click on it? I’m like, click the guy a like, send up a nice little short thing. And she hadn't heard back the next day. And she's like, so is that weird? I'm like, I didn't know, it's not weird at all. It's really hard to get a response from anybody.
LAURA: 08:06
Yeah. It's tough. It's tough to know the pacing of things, or you know, I think a lot too, sometimes we don't want to appear to be too forward or too eager. But then it's like, well, -- like, I think you wrote something about if you send somebody a question and then you get a closed answer, it's like, okay, this is too hard to even communicate by email. What's it going to be like when we see each other?
KAREN: 08:29
Yeah. I have like, intentionally not try to read other women's profiles, because I want it to sound like me. And when I read it, I think that sounds like me. I mean, I have traveled. I have said to myself, you know, that would be more fun to, you know, say “Hey, look at that,” then, you know, look at my phone. I mean, I have a friend who's like, please don't show me any pictures. (Laughter) So, I just, I kind of in my mind think well, that seemed like a real, it just seemed real to me. I mean, and also because I've met a lot of people, a lot of men. And I just feel like I want somebody that's a little bit interested in the world and paying attention to what's going on.
LAURA: 09:16
Okay, so you got back on January and, but then did the six months, and you said you had a couple of prospects, number four and five. So first of all, let me say I think five dates, about five first dates in five months -- that's not bad. It doesn't seem bad to me.
KAREN: 09:33
No, you're right. And ideally, yeah. That's kind of how it's been all along. That's -- or it's always feast or famine. You know, it's like three in all at once and then nothing for four months. But yes, it's not bad.
LAURA: 09:52
Okay. So you had two that you were hoping maybe something would continue.
KAREN: 09:57
Yeah. So number, four, I think, is moving back into town. I've had very sporadic email or text from him, you know, since he left six weeks or so ago. Anyhow, I feel like we could call on the phone, we have phones. But, well, we’ll see. He seemed really interested. And yet it's like, you can make a little more effort, because I feel like I've reached out. And then the other one I thought went really well, and then I haven't heard from him, but that was just a phone call. So and I was re-listening to some of the episodes and the one lady said to let them call you or reach back out to you. And so I thought, mm, I guess I'll wait.
What are the chances, I guess, because it just seems -- no, I mean, I think I’m pretty put together, I seem like a pretty regular person. My therapist says I have the least amount of baggage. You know, I feel like I have a lot to offer the right person, and I'm not sure what they're looking for. You know, maybe I'm too picky. I don't know. I did have a good friend tell me years ago, don't settle. And I don't, I don't want to settle. I want him to make my life better. Whoever he is, he's gonna make my life better and more interesting. So that's, I think, what I'm looking for.
And my life is good. It means you do see there's just really a lot of nice, good people out there looking for somebody to connect with. And then it does give you an opportunity to meet people that might just live down the street or, you know, a couple miles away that I would never meet otherwise. So I mean, really, it opens up possibilities that I would never have otherwise. The most negative is probably the whole, you know, soul-crushing, never get responses from people you think are legitimate choices. I mean, I'm not going after the neurosurgeons and the male models, or whatever. It's just like regular guy.
LAURA: 12:10
Soul crushing -- oh, that's heavy. You know, I did have one experience recently. I wouldn't call it soul crushing, but it was highly disappointing. I was on one of those sites where the woman has to make the first move. But the site pings you with men who've seen your profile and want you to reach out. One man described himself as touchy feely, especially while driving. And he promised he'd always keep one hand on the steering wheel, and the other on my thigh.
[Soundbite of buzzer]
Another said he tried to live a somewhat healthy lifestyle by eating quote, ice cream, biscuits, chips, and fun pops.
[Soundbite of buzzer]
Then there was a man I recognized from my hometown pickleball courts: active, attractive, engaged in his career.
[Soundbite of bell]
Sounds like a winner, right? So I reached out via email to connect -- like, you know, he said he wanted me to do. He had 24 hours to respond, or the match would disappear. Guess what? He didn't, and it did. Whatever. I’m trying to decide what to do if I ever see him again on the pickleball courts. Like, should I totally lean into the rejection by either waving dramatically or giving him the evil eye? Or should I pretend that I don't see him and in fact, he doesn't actually exist? What would you do?
Anyway, back to Karen. She asked for help with her profile. We'll have two experts weigh in, plus they’ll offer tips for all of us. That's after the break.
BREAK
LAURA: Are my photos too casual? Does my write-up come across as flippant? These are some of the questions Karen had about her online profile, and I'm turning to experts for answers. First, let's hear from Ann Maas. She's a professional photographer, and her work includes helping single people present their best selves online.
Ann Maas: 14:13
These photos should be about you. They really should not have your friends; they should not have your family, because they're not doing the dating. You are. When somebody is flipping on their phone, or on a website, they have an initial response. They’re either going to swipe left, swipe right. So you need to give as much information as quickly as possible, as clear as possible, on that photo. So having nice colors that you're wearing. We like to say in online dating when we do our photos: Solids are best. That way, your clothes don't come first and then you. It's you're wearing your clothes, but it's wearing a color that complements you.
Travel photos are great if they're in focus, if they can run and tell a story. That's the whole idea of adding a travel photo, that you can make a mention. What's nice about a lot of these dating sites, is you could put a comment on the bottom of your photo; you can put the year; you can say, I am off to blah, blah, blah. And it gives a starting point for somebody who is looking at your profile to say, “Oh, I've done that before, also,” and you start commenting on that. And also -- a big one -- please, no sunglasses.
LAURA: No sunglasses!
ANN: 15:30
Maybe on one. Sometimes people get alone carried away with their dog and cat pictures. If you are going to post with your dog or your cat, make sure it's a really good photo of the two of you. I've had clients who want photos taken with their pets, and so we will do that. Generally, I don't like to include them for myself and my online dating profiles. But if a client does want that, I'll take them. But I'm looking for that cute response, you know. I had photographed a guy with his dog, and they were dancing and put their heads together, and so it gives a woman -- go, “Oh, that is so cute.” But it should be a good picture. And just one.
LAURA: 16:16
I always kind of crack up when I see the leaning pose, like somebody is like, leaned over, you know, and it's usually with other people. So is there a way to best present, I guess, our bodies?
ANN: 16:29
It really is good to have a combination of a decent headshot, some three-quarter body which, head down to maybe your knees or a little below; and then a full-length. A great, fun way to do a full-length is a walking shot. So these days, if you have a friend, even taking a photo in the – like, on the iPhone, when it's the motion, whatever, the live image. Do that. Or even put it on video, because you can stop a photo, you can pick a photo out of a video that got you at just the right point. So if you're farther away and you walk towards the photographer, and they're just, you know, lalalala, and you're just kind of thinking -- you're not really thinking about when they're clicking. And so then you can go look at that stream and see which one worked.
LAURA: 17:22
But -- okay, what are your thoughts, honestly, on the selfie?
ANN: 17:27
A lot of people aren't good at it. And so unfortunately, depending on how far away they are holding the phone, it'll distort their face. We don't want to distort. And that's why it's important, also, when people do photograph somebody, there's something called a wide-angle lens. And a wide angle is going to allow you to take more of an image. So, so often the cell phones, if you try to -- if you hold the cell phone vertically and you try to take a picture of somebody, it will get the whole image, but they're going to be distorted. Because that's not what you look like. And so do you want to have really large feet? Do you want to have really large hands? Do you want to have a really large nose? No. So you need to stand back. Stand back.
LAURA: 18:12
So you need a really long arm if you're gonna be doing a selfie.
ANN: 18:16
The other thing people have done is stood their phone up on something, put it on video, walk back and then walk towards it, and do it themselves. I-watches -- the Apple Watch can turn on your phone and do that also. So there are ways if you're going to do it by yourself. But these days, come on, people have friends.
LAURA: Yeah.
ANN: And what's nice about the cell phones these days is so many of them have a portrait mode. And that's one thing, when people have professional photos done, we professionals will blur the background out, because we’re focusing on the person. And you can do that on these iPhones. I'm sure you can do it on the Androids also, but put it on portrait mode.
LAURA: Portrait, okay.
ANN: And that will then help at least to blur out the background.
LAURA: 19:04
Okay, so let's go ahead and take a look at -- Karen sent me these photos. From what I see from the first three photos, she looks like an outdoorsy, active woman.
ANN: 19:18
Right. So I love the ski picture that she has. I think that's great. And in that one, I don't mind that she's wearing sunglasses because it's sunny when you're skiing. It shows just enough of her. She's -- it's not like she just got off the chairlift. She's actually on the slope. So it looks like she really does ski. There's another kind of a close-up photo. It's kind of busy in the background. And again, it's harder to focus in on a person when things are busier in the background.
LAURA: 19:49
Oh, I see what you're saying now because it's an outdoor shot which, I think natural lighting is great -- that you're saying because you can see the fence, and that looks like there might be even some lawn chairs back there, or some outdoor chairs.
ANN: 20:01
Right. All that takes is somebody shifting their position. And again, if that was on portrait mode, that would have been blurred in the background, and then that would have been a nice photo.
LAURA: She sent one other picture, which -- it's a photo she posted on Instagram.
ANN: Of all her pictures. I like that one the best. The background, you can tell where she is. What's nice is, there's a solid kind of look -- I'm not sure if it's really in the background, it could be a huge stone mountain or something; I can't really tell. But it's solid color, so it enables her to stand out. She has on a solid cardigan, maroon color, a white shirt, and her hair is nice, she’s got a nice short haircut, and a beautiful smile. And that, that is a perfect kind of profile photo. it's simple, it's clean, it shows her; she's got a great smile.
The other thing, most of your pictures, you should look at the camera. When you think about when you're doing online dating, at least this is how I feel when I even do online dating. I want to feel like I'm connecting with the person. And if I see a lot of photos of a guy looking to the side smiling, I'm going to think, is there somebody else you're looking at? Excuse me, what about me? So I'd rather have him looking at me. A lot of times, I'll tell my clients, “Tilt your head.” Like the guy, “Smile and tilt your head a little, because women like to feel like they're being listened to.” And if you're sitting across from someone, say in a restaurant, and you're chatting with them, and you find their smiling, don’t people start to kind of tilt their head a little? And so when I have a guy tilt his head and smile, and it's like a headshot, and he looks friendly, a woman's gonna go “Oh my god, I want to date him.”
LAURA: So, so not only are you photographing for online sites, are you online yourself?
ANN: 21:59
I am online myself, I have been doing online dating. It's kind of funny. The men being a diamond in the rough that I sometimes you know, kind of will give them a little bit of a pass – meaning, a good pass. It's like, okay, I'll try this.
LAURA: 22:13
Oh, so maybe you can, as a photographer, you can see beyond a bad picture. And maybe that's -- okay, that's the biggest tip of the day. Maybe we don't want some of these really good guys to have good photos.
ANN: 22:26
And that is, and that is funny. Because right, if we met them, and they'll and so often, you know, we'll say to them, “Oh my god, you look so much better than your photos.” And then -- you're right, you were like, oh, this is my hidden secret. I don't want -- you know, I'm gonna now date them.
LAURA: 22:43
Okay, I'm intrigued by this whole diamond-in-the-rough strategy. Maybe I was too quick to swipe left on the man wearing a band-collar shirt that buttoned up diagonally. Now let's address Karen's online write- up.
AMY SCHOEN: To me when I read this profile, I'm like, so what?
LAURA: Mmm, so what.
AMY: Doesn't really say anything to me.
LAURA: Interesting.
That's Amy Schoen. She's a certified life and relationship coach, and you may recognize her from Season 1, when she told me this:
AMY: You need to get a real clear vision of what you want to live because different people want different things. And you need to find a partner who's going in the same direction. I mean, you have different kinds of people who want different things. The second thing is, the values need to be aligned: What you want, and what you think is important. So what I find out is that most people, they don't have a really concrete sense of their values, and a way to communicate it. And they're actually going after the wrong things.
LAURA: I brought Amy back to review what Karen had posted online.
AMY: So people want to know, who is this person? So when I work with somebody, I work through their values, I really try to infuse their values and talk about who they are, how they are in the world. And then you -- she did say she travels, but not nothing much about the travel.
LAURA: Like would she'd be more specific? Like instead of just saying, “I like to travel and have done a fair amount” – would a difference be saying like …
AMY: Yeah, where do you like to -- where do you like to travel? Because some people, or the woman I was --one of my clients yesterday. She likes to explore her local area. She really doesn't want to travel abroad.
LAURA: Ah.
AMY: So you know, kind of being more specific about maybe where you have traveled. One of my clients, I recently worked on her profile. And I helped her. I said, well tell somebody who -- what's on your bucket list.
LAURA: 24:44
Hmm, what's on your bucket list. And she also says here, and she does reference this line in the interview I did, so I will say it here. She had her daughter look at it. And her daughter suggested she take out that line about “I am a big believer in science.” What are your thoughts on that?
AMY: 25:03
Well, I mean, it's just, I think that's fine. Because if you want to meet someone who's on the same page, and today in our environment, there are definitely different sides of the coin. And so that's just saying her views, and so she's trying to attract somebody who thinks the same way that she does. I have no problem with that.
LAURA: 25:26
And then I think it's interesting that she put that she was financially secure. “And so should you be.”
AMY: 25:33
Yeah, that's a hard one. And then you have to be careful because you don't want people -- scammers. And so how do you, you know, it's some things, you have to just figure it out by maybe talking to them and things like that. And that's one of those slippery slopes. And what you think is financially secure, and what I think is financially secure, or financially responsible, you know, that's, there's a wide spectrum on that. So …
LAURA: Yeah.
AMY: I think you know, you can't be scared to put things out that share who you are. And if it's gonna turn somebody off, then let you know, let them move on to the next person.
LAURA: From the conversations we've had in the past, and this one, it sounds like almost, you need to really decide what is important enough for you to put on this, on this profile, this thing that is meant to attract people to want to get to know you better. And if it's really important for her to have a financially secure partner, then she should put it. But if it's, you know, I don't know.
AMY: Right. We work on this thing called the 30-second infomercial, which is really about looking at the five to seven things that are really important about the person you want to meet. And so you are communicating that. And it's interesting: When you can only give five to seven things, what you really distill down to, what's really the essence, and what's really important for you.
LAURA: 27:02
Yeah, I guess all we can do is put our best foot forward and then, I don't know, I’ve sort of taken the philosophy if things seem too hard to -- you know -- to even connect with someone, or you're starting a conversation and you're not getting anything back or you know, blah, then it's just like, this is too much. I know dating is work, but sometimes if you have to put so much work just to …
AMY: 27:23
No, and not relationships. If you think about who your best friends are and the people you hang out with. And those are clues to your values. And, you know, it isn't hard, right. With the right people, there’s a flow.
LAURA: 27:44
My thanks to Karen for bravely allowing us to critique her online dating profile. She's a catch. We wish her all the best out there. Thanks also to our experts, and we're not done yet. We're going to continue our Dating 101 lesson on the next episode of this podcast by talking about the first date.
Oh, boy, now I'm trying to remember the last time I had a first date. I did have a first meeting recently, though the more I think about it, the more I think that he may have thought it was a first date. He insisted on paying for my coffee, and he tried to kiss me. Oh but that, my friends, is a story for another time.
END CREDITS: Dating While Gray is produced in partnership with North Carolina Public Radio. For more on the show, check out datingwhilegray.com That's also where you can find links for sending voicemails and emails. I'd love to hear from you. I'm Laura Stassi, thanks for listening.