STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Now, the president's proposal on the census comes in the middle of his effort to reshape the election districts so that his party is more likely to win control of Congress, no matter how Americans vote. How much does one thing have to do with the other? We've called John Bisognano, who is president of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee, set up by Eric Holder, President Obama's attorney general, to push for independently drawn congressional maps. Welcome to the program, sir.
JOHN BISOGNANO: Thank you, Steve. Thanks for having me.
INSKEEP: What, if anything, would be the partisan effect of redrawing the - or redoing the census under President Trump's rules?
BISOGNANO: Well, the first point, which Hansi made very well, is that this is so clearly unconstitutional. And President Trump seems to have a disdain for, in some capacity, the 250 years of law that this country sits upon. And he's done that in many ways, but this is another statistical analysis, for one, that very clearly, he doesn't have the constitutional authority to do. Now, that said, if he were to try and do a mid-decade census or any of the iterations of different types of things that he has described via his social media post yesterday, as Hansi noted, there would be a waterfall of lawsuits immediately.
INSKEEP: But let's say that he manages to do this. And you're right, we can read the Constitution for ourselves. It says the census counts all persons. But suppose people without legal status were excluded, what would that do in a partisan sense, if anything, to the way that election maps are drawn?
BISOGNANO: Yeah, I think it depends on each state. Each state's process is entirely different. But the point is, I think what he's trying to do is entirely reshape the American electorate. He wants to make people that voted for him and look like him more representative with more power and a bigger vote chair than they currently have. And that's the same thing you see in gerrymandering that he's trying to pursue in Texas and a few other states right now, where he's trying to use leverage of map-drawing to essentially cheat and create districts where they don't have - they're drawing individuals - mostly individuals - that either lean democratic or have more progressive views to have less power inside the map-drawing process.
INSKEEP: Somebody listening might, in their minds, quite reasonably ask, why should we count illegal immigrants in the census for election purposes? Shouldn't the election be of citizens, and shouldn't we only count them?
BISOGNANO: Yeah. I mean, it's a constitutional question, but the question is not that. The census is used for so many things.
INSKEEP: Right.
BISOGNANO: I mean, the census is used for federal funding. It allocates resources. It allocates resources to cities and states and rural areas. And I think the things that you would see in a census like he's proposing would probably be dramatic drops in federal funding to places like Texas and Florida. You would see pretty incredible changes to the way that monies are allocated, let alone the congressional maps.
INSKEEP: You just said a very interesting thing there. Texas and Florida, two red states at the moment, much as Democrats would like them to be swing states. Are you saying that red states would be harmed by this proposal?
BISOGNANO: I absolutely am. And I also would want to make a note. And while we're talking about census and redistricting - Texas, as they are currently pursuing this cockamamie redistricting gerrymander process - it's pretty important to understand that the populations we're seeing from the census, both the census coming out of 2020, but also more recent data...
INSKEEP: Yeah.
BISOGNANO: ...Is massive increase in vote chair in Texas, right? People are moving to Texas. Everybody knows that. No one refutes that. What you don't necessarily see - because you said two states that are typically red, what you don't necessarily see in Texas is the places it's growing are in the cities and with people of color. Texas is now 60% people of color and only 40% white. Yet that's not represented in the way that they drew their congressional maps, and it's not, frankly, represented in the way that the state operates its government. So I think Texas is going to see a change, and it's not necessarily just the growth that everyone's watching. It's the fact that that state is no longer going to be as red as it has been. It's purpling. That's what we're seeing.
INSKEEP: I want to ask about the Democratic response to what Republicans are doing on redistricting. They're trying to openly partisan gerrymander Texas and maybe several other states to gain advantage in the 2026 election. Democrats are responding by setting aside reforms that you favor, saying that in California, New York and elsewhere, we should get rid of independent redistricting, and we should do our own partisan redistricting. As an advocate of independent redistricting, what do you make of that?
BISOGNANO: Yeah. I think, first of all, no one wants to be here. And the most important point is Texas has not moved yet. Everything is predicated on what Texas does. And we do need to keep the focus on Texas and keep people realizing that what's happening in Texas is critical to the future of this country in the way that this maps out.
INSKEEP: But do you favor Democrats responding in kind by overturning your own reforms?
BISOGNANO: So I do favor a measured response. I think that what we can't...
INSKEEP: Does that mean yes, overturn their reforms?
BISOGNANO: It means a temporary - so - what California is currently proposing, or seeking to propose, will be a temporary change to the constitutional amendment that put in place the reform.
INSKEEP: OK.
BISOGNANO: So the answer to your question is yes.
INSKEEP: All right.
BISOGNANO: The reality is we need to have a national representative democracy, right?
INSKEEP: John...
BISOGNANO: That's the point.
INSKEEP: Got it. John Bisognano. Thanks very much for clearing that up. He's president of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. Appreciate it.
BISOGNANO: Thank you, Steve. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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