Embodied: Season 1 Bonus Episode Transcript: The Only One In The Room

Sep 10, 2020

Anita Rao  00:00

Hey, it's Anita, I hope you have been enjoying this podcast. I really, really hope that because we have many more episodes coming this season, and I will tell you more about those later.  This is usually the part of the show where I offer a reflection: my thoughts, experiences and opinions on all the taboo topics "Embodied" is known for. Well, here's a reflection on the type of show this is and our mission: to take all the shame out of sex, relationships and personal health. It is really important work to me and the Embodied team. And when we were getting "Embodied" off the ground, it was only natural to look around for like-minded hosts who get really personal with their guests. That's how I found "The Only One In The Room." It's a podcast hosted by Laura Cathcart Robbins, and her podcast origin story begins when she experienced otherness as the only black person on a writing retreat with 600 people in attendance. On her show, Laura talks to folks who've been in that situation — been the only one of some kind in a space that can feel unwelcoming.  So today I thought I would share one of the coolest recent episodes of "The Only One In The Room." The guest is a woman named Amy Bond who has led a fascinating life. She's a former sex worker who is now an attorney and entrepreneur. She's also been married for eight years to a guy named Keith, who she says she is deeply in love with. But Amy has been on the receiving end of confused looks or judgmental criticisms when people learn she is someone who has opened her marriage.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  01:39

Can you tell us about — just briefly — meeting Keith and what you thought of him when you met him?

Amy Bond  01:45

Okay. So, the first time I met Keith, I was actually meeting Keith's friend whose name is Brian. And it was like two days before Christmas in 2010 — no 2009 — and Brian had called me and was like: Hey, do you want to go see "Zombieland." "Zombieland" is a movie starring Bill Murray — one of the greatest movies ever made. And he said: You want to go to "Zombieland" with me at Laurelhurst Theater? And I said: Yeah, that would be awesome. I go meet Brian, and Brian had brought along his friend Keith. And Keith introduced himself. And I remember distinctly thinking that he looked like a very serious man. And so I apologized to him before the movie, because I have the loudest laugh, like an obnoxiously loud laugh. And in movie theaters, I commonly have an experience where I'll just be watching a movie — I'm like, so into it, and I'm so loud, and people in the movie theater will start moving away from me. And by the time the movie's over, there's like this force field around me [of] people just trying to get away. So I told Keith before the movie started, I said: Hey, this is a comedy. I have a really loud laugh. I'm probably got to annoy you a lot. And he said: Oh no problem. He's so polite. And then the lights go down, the movie comes on, and within three minutes this guy is screaming — like frantically, hilarious slap your knee. You've never seen anybody laugh [with as] full-bodied a laugh as my now husband does, and I'm sitting right next to him just like dying because this movie so funny. And so it was my first indication there's a lot more going on there than I thought when I first shook his hand.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  03:40

Right.

Amy Bond  03:41

And you know, I like to say we have we haven't stopped laughing inappropriately since then. And we just, you know, are always laughing.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  03:49

That's amazing. I love that story.

Amy Bond  03:52

Love at first laugh. Love it first laugh, and he kind of outlaughed you, didn't he? Oh my gosh. I mean, he is a 260-pound man, and he puts his ass into it. Like, he doesn't just like ... It's's not just his face that laughs. It's like his whole body convulses as he bends forward into it. It's great.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  04:15

Well I have to tell you as the recipient of your holiday cards, I've seen that ass. And I can imagine. [Laughs] Him putting it into his laugh.

Amy Bond  04:29

[Laughs] We do some weird holiday cards. It's true.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  04:32

Yes you do. They're the best. So wait, how long have you been married?

Amy Bond  04:36

So May 26, just two weeks ago was our anniversary, and we have now been married for eight years.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  04:43

Oh, Happy anniversary.

Amy Bond  04:45

Thank you. And, you know, until this year, we were monogamous. And that seemed like, you know, the thing to do . And it also seemed like you only have time for one person — like people are a lot of time. Relationships are a lot of time. So it wasn't that we were against dating other people, but just, we already didn't have enough time for each other when we're just, go go go. So, you know, it  took a long time to come around to that point.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  05:15

Right. And we're gonna, we're gonna get there. Tell me about your wedding.

Amy Bond  05:20

So we also, again, we got married in Portland in the Rhododendron Garden in Portland, Oregon. And that was the year — and so this was 2012 — I was in my two L year of law school. And that was the year that Apple did this campaign where they have the like the eight different colored iPods, and they were like set in a rainbow, and they were on every bus stop sign and every billboard you passed in LA, San Francisco or Boston.  And I remember seeing this, like rainbow colored iPod display and thinking: Oh, that's what I want my bridesmaids to look like in my wedding.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  05:59

[Laughs] iPods... Rainbow iPods? I want to hear this.

Amy Bond  06:03

Yeah, so rainbows basically. And my poor bridesmaids put up with me, saying: Okay, we'll all get a different colored dress, and I thought, you know, then they can have their own style. And they all like color coordinated so that it didn't look terrible. And so the women's side of the wedding looked like a rainbow. And then the men's side was, you know, black and white suits. Very cute.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  06:30

Was it a lot of people?

Amy Bond  06:31

You know, we didn't have that many people. I have a really big family, and it was mostly my family and men who I had dated in Portland.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  06:40

Okay, that is hilarious.

Amy Bond  06:44

For whatever reason, men I've dated that don't work out tend to just hang around, and they're friends. So, you know, that's really actually quite nice. And so my guests were all my friends who I'd dated and then my family. And Keith's guests were his family and his close friends, and, you know, we both have a lot of acquaintances, but the list of people who are, like, you know, family or akin to family is pretty small. I think we had 60 people there.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  07:17

Yeah. Was Keith married before?

Amy Bond  07:20

He was. So, actually the night that I met him at "Zombieland" he was actually driving down from Seattle to go separate his phone plan from his ex-wife's phone plan.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  07:33

Oh, wow.

Amy Bond  07:33

And for whatever reason, that was like, it was like: Okay, the marriage is finally done. This is the step that we're taking that tells us that this marriage is officially over.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  07:46

Interesting.

Amy Bond  07:47

And he was really sad, and umm, you know, kind of existential. So I invited him over to my house, and we got high and talked about the meaning of life, and that was our first I guess you could call it a date. [Laughs]

Laura Cathcart Robbins  08:00

That's kind of dope that you gave him like that respite and that place to do that, right?

Amy Bond  08:09

Yeah. And the only food I had was this these popsicles called like Skinny Cow popsicles, which is a funny name for a food.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  08:16

Oh I know those.

Amy Bond  08:16

Oh you do? Okay. So we were like ... We like got home from "Zombieland," got high, and then we were hungry. And so we ate like a box of Skinny Cow popsicles between the two of us.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  08:30

First date.

Amy Bond  08:32

First date. Yeah. And one of the very first questions he asked me, he said: Oh, do you want to have kids? And I told him that, that I did. And then he asked me later in the night, like: Why do you want to go to law school? And I said: So I can afford to have my kids. [Laughs]

Laura Cathcart Robbins  08:52

There you go. [Laughs] So tell me what marriage means to you guys...?

Amy Bond  08:59

You know what? I think, you know, there's so many people in the world who tell you that marriage has to be hard and that marriage is difficult. And it's peaks and valleys all the way down, baby. And that just has not been my experience. I think that that is probably a true story for some people, and that it's a big roller coaster, and it goes up and down. And I've certainly had relationships like that. But Keith is not one of them. And for me, our marriage is really firmly founded on a really close friendship, and the ability to laugh with each other and, you know, be there for each other when things are harder and just always knowing that this one has my back. And, you know, I always feel like when I'm spending time with my husband, like it's just playtime.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  09:55

Hmm, hmm.

Amy Bond  09:56

Even last year, we went and we got this trust made. And we're like in the office of like the trust lawyers. We're talking about what we want our wills to look like. And it was just — it felt like play time. Like it was so weird to be in an office in like a suit, and everyone's wearing a suit. You've got a notary there to like be a witness. And, you know, Keith wants his ashes thrown off this obscure cliff, and so we were talking about how we'd throw the ashes. And how we want there to be parties, and it was just, you know, even stuff like that can be so fun if it's with the right person. And Keith is just that right person. And I have to say, I almost feel like I didn't even choose Keith, and I'm not really like a destiny person. I, I mostly believe that you make your reality. But Keith, it just, he came into my life and fell into my lap, and I did nothing to like make that happen. But as soon as I spent, you know, two hours having a conversation with him, I really distinctly remember thinking: Oh, and this is my person now. And it was just a matter of fact. It wasn't: Oh, I'm gonna choose this person. It was just, and this is my person.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  11:19

Mm hmm. I totally I understand that feeling. Very much so. And it is ... It is quite a freeing realization, or it was for me anyway. It's like: Oh, here he is.

Amy Bond  11:34

Yeah.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  11:34

Sometimes I just look at Scott. And I'm like: Hey, it's you. It's you sitting there. Like it's so weird to me that he's still here. And that he's still my person, you know?

Amy Bond  11:46

I love that, yes.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  11:47

You guys are super cute together: you and Keith. And tell me before you decided to open your marriage, were either of you interested in having sex with other people? Did you guys ever talk about that?

Amy Bond  12:00

So we did. Okay, so this is a really funny story, and it's kind of long. Just cut me off if it's too long. Okay, so there was one point in 2018 when Keith was working in Seattle a lot, and he was there like five days a week. And he said to me: You know, I get really lonely when I go to Seattle. And I was like: Oh God, so he's gonna want to date other people. In my head that's what I thought. And then his follow up was ...

Laura Cathcart Robbins  12:28

Okay wait. I'm sorry. I'm stopping you right there. [Laughs] Your first thought was: Oh, good. He's gonna want to date other people.

Amy Bond  12:37

Yes!

Laura Cathcart Robbins  12:38

So tell me why. Tell me why.

Amy Bond  12:40

Okay, so I feel like the whole ... This is so controversial. But I feel like the whole monogamy thing it, and like the ownership of other people, is just, I think in 50 years, we're gonna look back at that and just be like: How weird. The way that people today kind of think about non-monogamous relationships. And I really think we're setting ourselves up for failure by forcing ourselves to believe in this myth of monogamy. And I think part of the reason I believe that is because, you know, when I was a call girl, I met so many men in hotel rooms who would, you know, do the act of taking off the wedding ring and putting it on the bedstand before they, you know, got their sexy massage.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  13:26

Right.

Amy Bond  13:26

And then like, put it back on. And I, I think that this is just another way that our society uses shame to keep people stuck in boxes that aren't really real. And so like, man and woman to me as like genders feel slightly artificial. And, you know, this belief that there's only one other person for you, I think sets a lot of people up for disappointment later when they start to want other people, and, you know, we're part of a greater animal kingdom, and one of the only species that actually practices monogamy, and so it kind of makes you sit back and think: Huh. Is that like the biological way that we're set up to operate? And it seems to me the answer's no. Hmm. Okay. So I would have been, I would have been cool anyway. We'd never like explicitly had the conversation about, you know, can we date other people. It just really just hadn't come up. So anyway, Keith says: You know, I've been going to Seattle five days a week. I'm getting lonely. And then his follow up was: I really want you to come with me more often. And I was like: Eww. No. I'm gonna Seattle, you know, five days a week just so you're not lonely, like get a hobby, like play tennis! You know, I would love it if my husband picked up pole dancing.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  15:00

[Laughs]

Amy Bond  15:01

But Keith. I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon. So I said: What about this. What if we make you a dating profile, and you date someone else? And then you just have like a companion or friends, you know? And his reaction was: Oh, yeah, that sounds awesome.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  15:24

So he was quick. He was quick to jump on that.

Amy Bond  15:27

He was straight to it. And that night, we made him a profile. He was like Mr. Web Services, because he's like, really into web services at his work. And so lo and behold, like all these women reached out to him. And we like went through the candidates together. And then he went on a date with one and, and that went well.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  15:49

And this was in Seattle.

Amy Bond  15:50

And this was in Seattle.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  15:53

Som he's flying up there. And the profile is a Seattle-based profile. So these are women  from Seattle who are responding, and Mr. Web Services sounds good to them. So he went on a date...

Amy Bond  16:09

[Laughs] I have to say ... I had a lot of pride when like, you know, I don't believe that you own other people. But when like all these women — these like hot, successful super smart women — were like: Mr. Web Services. I was like: Oh yeah, that's mine. [Laughs]

Laura Cathcart Robbins  16:26

That's so funny. Did any of them have any idea that he was married? Is that is stated?

Amy Bond  16:31

Yeah.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  16:32

Okay. Okay.

Amy Bond  16:34

And this is a really interesting thing in online dating, because there are some other people, especially in the Pacific Northwest — so San Francisco, Portland, Oregon, Seattle, Washington — where it's called "ethical non-monogamy." [It's] where people who are married have either companions or friends, or you know, fuck buddies on the side, who they either date by themselves, which is the most common, or there's the alternative where the couple dates like individual people as a threesome. But that wasn't the vibe I was going for it. We wanted to do like, okay, Keith can go date other women and have fun with that

Laura Cathcart Robbins  17:15

Right. Now did you establish any rules before he went on his first date?

Amy Bond  17:23

We did not, and we should have.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  17:26

Okay, tell me why.

Amy Bond  17:27

We learned that lesson really quickly. Because one night, Keith went on a date, and then I said: Okay, you know, 8:30 is a little late to meet someone. He'd already gone on a date with a really nice lady. They had like a five-course meal together. I was like: Oh, you're going on another date? He's like: Yeah, it'll be quick. And I said: Okay, but 8:30 is kind of late on a Wednesday, like, you know, go get a cocktail and go to bed. So, he calls me the next morning and he's like: Oh my God. We had sex. It was awesome. And I was like, what? [Laughs[

Laura Cathcart Robbins  18:03

Oh, you weren't prepared for that.

Amy Bond  18:07

I wasn't because I thought in my mind —and when I tell this story to women and men — women generally agree with me, but men generally agree with Keith. So it is very evenly split along like traditionally defined gender lines whose side of the story people feel more empathetic to. And in my mind, when the sex was going to happen, Keith was going to say: Excuse me, I've got to go call my wife. And then call me. [Laughs]

Laura Cathcart Robbins  18:39

Right?

Amy Bond  18:41

And in Keith's mind, it was like: No, we already did the part about like, go do whatever you wan. Or not whatever you want, but like you can have sex with other people part. And the sex was just a natural extension of the date. And so I was really hurt by that. And we had a conversation about it and Keith cut off contact with the lady who was who was great it sounded like from his telling of the experience. And we kind of regrouped and put it down. This was like a year and a half ago. And then in January, we went to Sundance together. And this whole time, I've kind of been thinking: You know, someday, when I'm not so busy with my businesses, I'm gonna probably want to date other people too. And we went to Sundance in January, and we're hanging out, and I said — it literally just like occurred to me — like, I think I want to try dating other people. And maybe it was like being out of town or like feeling like I was in a new city. You know that phrase, that ridiculous phrase: What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  19:52

Yes.

Amy Bond  19:52

I think there's like that general feeling when your in new places of just like: Oh, I'm in a new place. What if I try a new thing. And, I'd never been to Utah before. So I was like: Oh, a new place. What can I do in my life that's different, you know? And I said: Hey honey, I think I want to create a dating profile. I think I want to go on a date with a man. And he was like: Great. Me too. Let's like make profiles together. So, you know, for like, the first day of our vacation at Sundance, we sat on the couch in a chalet, just like making each other's profiles for each other. And it was so much fun. And I realized like how foreignthe dating world became to me, because when I was dating, it was like, 2009, and the only thing was match.com. And now you've got Bumble, and you've got Tinder and then you've got Grindr. There's just so many of them, and Coffee Meets Bagels is a great one.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  20:54

I love that name.Coffee Meets Bagels.

Amy Bond  20:57

Coffee Meets Bagels. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's so good. It's so cute. And so, each one of the apps has slightly different rules. And we spent  this afternoon in front of a fireplace drinking hot cocoa and like making each other dating profiles and figuring out like: What do we want to say about ourselves? And what are our rules this time? And for us, one of our rules is that we do actually say like: I think I'm gonna, I think tonight's the night we're gonna like actually move forward. And there's no sex on the first date, very like, you know, old fashioned of us.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  21:09

[Laughs] I'm sorry. That is funny. Okay, go ahead.

Amy Bond  21:43

So, we make each one of these profiles. And it's just kind of unfair in dating, like the men are so much more thirsty than the women. And so on my profile, there's like, 7,00 like: Hey girl. And then on Keith's profile there's like four. And he wouldn't mind if I told you that because it's just true. So he's like: Wait a minute, how come you got so much more than me? And then he got a little jealous, too. And so there's like a little bit of jealousy. And that's the moment when we were like: Okay, wait. Do we actually want to do this?Because I was surprised by my own reaction that first time when 8:30 turned into an overnight thing. And I didn't think that I was going to be hurt by that. If you had asked me in advance, I don't think I would have said that would have bothered me. And so I knew that we wanted to proceed a little bit more cautiously. It wasn't just like: Okay, I guess we're having sex with everyone. It was like: Okay, how do you feel about this? And like, you know, surprising things would make us feel things, like me having more, you know, thirsty men on my page than him like brought something up about, you know, feeling inadequate and that kind of thing. So, it's been a really interesting kind of journey, but a journey that very abruptly ended because of Coronavirus.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  23:17

Right. And I figured that that you guys have been quarantined together which means no dating. I have a couple more questions. Going back to being married, which from, you know, Scott and I aren't married for a variety of reasons. And one of them, and this is you know, absolutely my opinion about myself but not about other people. But for me,  the legalities of marriage kind of make it prohibitive. I don't like the idea that it's a legal contract that requires lawyers and for me anyway it did. It doesn't require lawyers for everybody. And for my understanding is a contract of monogamy. Is that what you understand?

Amy Bond  23:59

I really don't think of it that way. Though I do think that it's kind of ingrained in the belief system of what people think about when they think of marriage. And, you know, I am very open about my life. So when I started talking about this, it was mostly on my Instagram story. I was asking people free advice on my like, bio. I'd be like: Does this sound right? You know. And so many people would respond to me and say like: Oh my god, like, are you trying to destroy our marriage? Like one of my friends even said: You know what they say? Happy people are always trying to destroy their own happiness. And I was like: What?

Laura Cathcart Robbins  24:38

I've never heard that by the way. [Laughs] Never heard that. Anyway, go ahead.

Amy Bond  24:45

I'd never thought about whether I actually had heard that before. And I realize you're right. I've never heard that either. [Laughs] I'm like okay, Tolstoy over here.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  24:56

Right. [Laughs]

Amy Bond  24:59

So, you know, I got actually some really interesting pushback from people who I find to be very progressive and people really concerned about: Oh, like, are you guys not happy? Like what happened? And it was like: Oh no, nothing happened. Like we're great. That's, I think, probably a sign that your marriage is doing quite well actually if you trust the other person enough to say, like: We've talked. We've figured out that this can be a part of our life. And, you know, in the work that I do in family law, specifically, I think about a lot of the things ... I think a lot about the systemic reasons for things like domestic violence. And I think a sense of ownership over another person is one of the ingrained mentalities that makes us feel like we have a right to say hit other people or hit the person that we're married to. And in a lot of domestic violence cases, you'll find that the husband will hit his wife. Or the wife, in fewer cases, the wife hits the husband, but they don't hit their kids. And that's like, that's the line that doesn't get crossed in about 40% of cases. And I think that's really interesting. And I wonder what it says about the social construct of marriage? Like, are we ingraining this idea that your ownership over somebody else gives you the legal right to hurt them if they do something you don't like? Yeah. Or manipulate them in a way that you might try to manipulate yourself and feel like it was okay. And I think that ownership part is really scary.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  25:43

Mm hmm. Well, I agree. I think the ownership part is scary, too. And I, again, you know, Scott and I don't subscribe to that. So you mentioned that you guys ... You're not jealous of each other. He was jealous of how much attention you were getting.

Amy Bond  27:06

He wanted more of it.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  27:07

He wanted more of it. But you don't have those feelings of jealousy when he goes out on a date except for that one time when you were blindsided by him having sex.

Amy Bond  27:17

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, I don't feel jealous. And I actually feel like, just like this opens my husband up to interesting human experiences. And because Keith dated more than I did before quarantine started, he's actually been able to continue some of his ... continue building the relationship with some of the women he's met through like Zoom. And sometimes I'll be in my office, and he'll be on like a date upstairs on like a Saturday afternoon, which is usually when dates happen. I'll kind of like peek my ear out, and I can hear him just like laughing hysterically, at like this economist's jokes. There's an economist. And I just love it. Like, I get to hear my husband, lke, be a slightly different human. I think we're all slightly different in every relationship we're in. And, you know, not different people, but different relationships bring out different qualities in us. So, he'll like prepare economic jokes ... He'll like get them queued up before he does a call with them, because he wants to make her laugh. And, like, I don't think economist jokes are that funny. So, you know, like, I just love that he can express himself in a new way with different people. And especially for men. I think we've created a culture where it's harder for men to build friendships with one another, and like really deep, meaningful friendships with one another. And often men feel more comfortable building those relationships with women. And now he has another resource, you know, another set of ideas that actually like permeate into our marriage. And that's really cool.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  29:06

It is really cool. I'm going through like a filing system frantically in my mind to find something that I can equate this to in my own life. And I definitely do not feel like that with Scott with other women. But, you know, Scott has this absolute love of surfing and the ocean. And when people would first meet us, there would be kind of an expectation that because we were so connected, that I would automatically need or want to share that with him. And the truth is that I not only don't. Like, go to Mexico. Go for a week. You know, it really it does me good to see him enjoying it the way that he does. It nourishes him in a way that I can't. And also what you said that I don't have the energy to, quite honestly. So, in my mind, that's what I'm equating what you're saying to. And that, I think that way I can go: Okay, I understand. So you're not getting jealous. Are you getting turned on at all by it? Like, do you listen in like a voyeur and think: Hmm!

Amy Bond  29:24

Um, I haven't quite gotten there. In terms of like physical descriptions of sexual acts. I am much more turned on by connections between minds than I am between physicality for the most part.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  30:28

Your sapiosexual.

Amy Bond  30:31

I think that's what they call it, right? Like it's when you're in love with people's minds. And there's a lot of those in Portland, Oregon, which is where I initially like put my dating pool.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  30:41

Right.

Amy Bond  30:41

So, there's this game. I'm sure you've heard of it. It's called like 36 questions that will make anyone fall in love with you.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  30:48

No. I had not heard of this.

Amy Bond  30:52

Oh, okay. Oh my gosh. So, whoever is listening, it's like the most important thing ever. Go look it up right now. There's the Modern Love essay all about it. It's about this, this set of questions that I think a group of psychologists put together. And they start off with softballs, like: What's your favorite food? And then you both say your favorite food. And then you ask the next question: Tell me about your relationship with your mom is one of them. And these 36 questions culminate in a four minute session where you stare into the other person's eyes, and you don't do anything except stare into their eyes for four minutes.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  31:33

Hmm.

Amy Bond  31:34

And I've done this before in like group things. And every time I stare into somebody's eyes for four minutes that person stays ingrained in my brain and my like daily experience. I met a woman at a retreat six years ago, and I still think about her eyes and the intensity and the waves and curtains of emotions that I watched pass off of her eyes. Like every day I think about that. It was almost like you could see all the layers of resistance and the armor that we put on ourselves every day because the world is hard, just like, in little pieces just fall away. And I think about that woman, and I think about the very like death of her eyes every single day. And that was four years ago. And so I just think it's amazing that we have all these tools to create deeper human connection with the people around us. And it's just like waiting for us to pick these tools up and go use them.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  32:43

I actually wanted to circle back again to something you said about trust. Was that, like you feel that your trust in each other is deeper ... I don't think you did a comparison. But you were saying that it was evidence of how deep your trust was for each other that you're able to do this and willing to do this, that this was the next step for you guys.

Amy Bond  33:05

Yeah. Again. I don't think that's true for everyone. And I think that has been true for my relationship.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  33:12

Right. I just wouldn't have thought of it that way. And  that makes sense to me too. What one sentence of advice would you have for someone who's looking to open their marriage or thinking about it?

Amy Bond  33:23

Oh. I would just say the one word would be transparency. Say everything. Communicate everything. The more uncomfortable it feels to communicate, say it.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  33:34

Okay.

Amy Bond  33:34

But that's true for any marriage.

Laura Cathcart Robbins  33:36

Yeah, yeah it is. It is true. You just have nothing to hide. That's all.

Amy Bond  33:40

Right, right. [Laughs]

Anita Rao  33:46

Special thanks to Laura Cathcart Robbins, her co host and producer Scott Slaughter and the team at Lipstick and Vinyl for sharing this episode of "The Only One In The Room" with all of us. If you were riveted listening to Amy Bond's interview, let me recommend her first appearance on that podcast. It's all about how she is a former sex worker turned attorney. You can download and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite audio app, like the one you're listening to "Embodied" on right now. By the way, I promised more "Embodied" to come. Here's a preview of what you can expect before our first season ends.

Angela Garbes  34:21

Well, I mean, I think if you don't want to have children, that's that's fine. You know, I think, but you know, you are here. You are an adult, right, because someone took care of you. We all began this way. Right? And so I think that there's this idea that, you know,  we have this, you know, the general lack of nuance in our cultural conversations. We tend to divide on this idea that we, you know, you either love kids and want them or you hate them. Right. Or you're not interested in them at all. They're so ... They're so inconvenient and disgusting, right?

Max Brown  34:49

Where I live is a very small town. [People] were very harsh about their curiosity and would say a lot of very  hurtful things to me all because they didn't know what this was they've never experienced someone transitioning, or a trans person for that matter.

Ellen Ashley  35:12

And I was on Match. And I tried Tinde, and I tried Okay, Cupid. And so, Tinder is the scary one for everybody, because they say it's a hookup site. And of course my friend Judy in Boston, who's in the northeast, she says: Oh my gosh, that's the best one, but it's not a hookup site. But honestly, you know, you put no personal information into Tinder except a photo pretty much. So, yeah, it's a hookup site pretty much.

Anita Rao  35:37

"Embodied" is a production of North Carolina Public Radio WUNC. I'm Anita Rao on an exploration of our brains, our bodies and taking on the taboo with you.