For white people who have just recently recognized their own complicity in America's racist systems and are looking to "fix" that — it's not going to happen overnight.
"It's a little bit like saying 'I want to be in shape tomorrow' ..." says author Robin DiAngelo. "This is going to be a process."
DiAngelo is the author of White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism. The book came out in 2018 and is back on the bestseller lists as streets fill with protesters calling for an end to police violence against black people.
The status quo in the United States is racism, DiAngelo says, and "it is comfortable for me, as a white person, to live in a racist society."
To sustain the momentum of these protests, DiAngelo says, it must become uncomfortable for white people to continue to benefit from racist systems.
"We've got to start making it uncomfortable and figuring out what supports we're going to put in place to help us continue to be uncomfortable," she says. "Because the forces of comfort are quite seductive."
On encouraging white people to reflect on how race has shaped their lives
This [work] will be lifelong: really thinking deeply about what it means to be white, how your race shapes your life. We live in a society that turns race over to people of color. They have a race. We're just people. And so we see ourselves as outside of race. And that's problematic for many reasons. But there's so much potentially rich insight that we can gain from deeply reflecting on our own racial experiences.
On how white people can be complicit in racist systems without recognizing their own racism
Racism is what happens when you back one group's racial bias with legal authority and institutional control. ... When you back one group's collective bias with that kind of power, it is transformed into a far-reaching system. It becomes the default. It's automatic. It's not dependent on your agreement or belief or approval. It's circulating 24/7, 365.
Racism is the foundation of the society we are in. And to simply carry on with absolutely no active interruption of that system is to be complicit with it. And in that way, we can say that nice, white people who really aren't doing anything other than being nice people are racist. We are complicit with that system. There is no neutral place.
On challenging definitions
We've been taught to think about a racist as someone who consciously and intentionally seeks to hurt people based on race. And if that's what you think it means to be racist, then of course it's offensive that I would say you were racist. That's not what I mean by that. ... All of the racism I've perpetrated in my life was neither conscious nor intentional, but harmful to other people nonetheless.
On suggesting that white people ask how — rather than if — they have been shaped by race and racism
When you change your understanding of what it means to be racist, you will no longer be defensive. ... Who among your listeners right now would ever say they're consciously, intentionally mean across race? I think that definition [of racism as individual, conscious, malintent across race] is the root of most of the defensiveness.
When you change your definition, it's actually liberating. ... It's transformative. You know, you can stop defending, deflecting, denying, explaining away, giving all the evidence for why you are different and couldn't possibly have been impacted by the society you live in.
And you can start getting to work actually trying to identify: All right. It was inevitable that I was socialized into this system. It's inevitable that I will have blind spots. ... And so I'm going to focus my energy on how I've been shaped by the system, but not if.
We have to change our question. If our question is if I've been shaped, the answer will be an easy no. And then what further action is required of us? Nothing.
When the answer is how, well, that sets you on a lifelong process.
On specific steps white people can take
I would start with some very deep reflection on what it means to be white: How your own race shapes your life. ... Our voices, our part in this has been missing for all too long.
But again, we're never going to understand this if we don't listen to black, Indigenous and other peoples of color. So start reading what they're writing, listening to their videos, attending their talks and educating yourself.
There are two really excellent resources. ... One is Dr. Eddie Moore's 21-Day Racial Equity [Habit] Building Challenge — it'll walk you through a daily practice. And Layla Saad's Me and White Supremacy Workbook. That's a book you do rather than read. That will start us on what is a process — not a moment or an instant.
On asking white people to have humility
I've never met a white person who didn't have an opinion on racism. ... That doesn't make it informed. It's so complicated and nuanced and layered. ... So be willing to consider that maybe your opinions are not as informed as you think they are. ...
Most white people live segregated lives. Most of us don't really even know black people. Most of us go cradle to grave with few, if any, authentic, sustained cross-racial relationships and no real sense of loss about that. And yet, we have these opinions that we feel are equal to people who have, you know, studied and struggled and worked on these issues for decades. And so it's a little bit like saying, well, I've been to the Epcot Center, therefore I'm qualified to wade in on a debate with Neil deGrasse Tyson on whether Pluto is a planet.
On the two questions she hears most frequently
There are two top questions I get when I give a talk ... The first one is: What do I do? And when I get that question, I offer one back: ... How have you managed not to know? How have you managed to be a full-functioning, likely educated adult in 2020 and not know the answer to that question? And that's meant to challenge that person that, that's on you. The information's everywhere. Why haven't you sought it out up until this moment? What did it take to get you to ask that question?
So that's meant to be a challenge, but it's also a sincere question. Take out a piece of paper and jot down your answer to why you don't know what to do, or how to get started. And there will be your map. Everything you write on that piece of paper can be addressed. None of it will be quick or easy. But begin with that list.
The second top question that I get is: How do I tell or talk to other white people about racism? ... You notice that that question assumes that it's not us. We're good to go. We're down now. Let's go out and change the world.
It is us. We can never take ourselves out of that equation. And I think actually, the more we work on our own conditioning, the more effective we will be at helping others see theirs.
On maintaining momentum
We've seen these moments before. We thought we were post-racial after the civil rights movement. We thought we were post-racial after Obama's presidency. We are so not post-racial and we have never been. I do see these protests being sustained and different kinds of demands coming out of them. That is hopeful.
But the key is: What will happen when those cameras go away and when it's no longer — for lack of a better word, for white people, anyway – "exciting" or "righteous" to go down and protest? In some ways, that's the easier kinds of actions. What are we going to do to sustain it when we no longer have that kind of pressure, when we're back into our racial comfort zone?
Mallory Yu and Sarah Handel produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Beth Novey adapted it for the web.
ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
As streets around the world fill with protesters calling for an end to police violence against black people, some white people are asking themselves tough questions about what it means to be complicit and what it means to fight racism. Robin DiAngelo's book, "White Fragility," tackles some of those questions. It came out a couple of years ago, and it is back on bestseller lists today. And she joins us to talk about the role white people can play in dismantling racist systems that have been built over centuries.
Thank you for being here.
ROBIN DIANGELO: Oh, thank you for having me.
SHAPIRO: OK. So you and I are two white people having a conversation about race. To start, why do you think that's important, and why is it rare?
DIANGELO: It's important because we're not going to say or do things that are going to hurt one another. There's not this deep history of harm between us. People of color, black people have an understanding of racism that you and I never will or never could. You know, from the time they were born, it's been coming at them and from us. And yet we do have an understanding of it that they cannot have and that we need to also look at and contribute to the conversation.
SHAPIRO: Can you give us an example of that understanding?
DIANGELO: Well, spend some time - and I will actually say this will be lifelong - really thinking deeply about what it means to be white, how your race shapes your life. You know, we live in a society that turns race over - to people of color, they have a race. We're just people. And so we see ourselves as outside of race, and that's problematic for many reasons. But there's so much potentially rich insight that we can gain from deeply reflecting on our own racial experiences.
SHAPIRO: So how do you define racism in a way that incorporates both the overt and the insidious aspects of it, more specific than just, I know it when I see it?
DIANGELO: Oh, I would actually challenge any white person who says, I'll know it when I see it. I would say, actually, all of the racism I've perpetrated in my life was neither conscious nor intentional but harmful to other people nonetheless.
You know, we all have racial bias. I think the research on implicit bias is very clear there. Racism is what happens when you back one group's racial bias with legal authority and institutional control, when you have overwhelming homogeneity at the tables where decisions are made that affect the lives of people who aren't at those tables. So racism is the foundation of the society we are in. And to simply carry on with absolutely no active interruption of that system is to be complicit with it. And in that way, we can say that nice white people who really aren't doing anything other than being nice people are racist. There's no neutral place.
SHAPIRO: As an educator on racial and social justice, have you found any easy way to open white people's eyes to that and explain that complexity to them?
DIANGELO: Not easy, but effective at this point.
SHAPIRO: (Laughter) Easy is the wrong word, for sure. Yeah.
DIANGELO: (Laughter) I do have a few things going for me at this time. You know, there's a lot of credibility behind my name at this point in my work. I'm also white. There's a kind of wink between us. Hey, you know and I know - come on, we know you can't really deny that when I'm saying it the way you might if I was a black person saying it. And I can challenge the definitions. So we've been taught to think about a racist as someone who consciously and intentionally seeks to hurt people based on race. And if that's what you think it means to be racist, then of course it's offensive that I would say you were racist. That's not what I mean by that.
SHAPIRO: What are some specific steps that white people can take to see and start understanding our own biases and our own complicity and our own role in these inherently racist structures and systems that you're describing?
DIANGELO: You know, it's a little bit like saying, I want to be in shape tomorrow, right? You're not going to be in shape tomorrow if you're out of shape. This is going to be a process, and there are going to be multiple parts to that process. So I would start with some very deep reflection on what it means to be white. We will never understand racism if we don't listen to black, indigenous and other peoples of color. So start reading what they're writing, listening to their videos, attending their talks and educating yourself.
And then there are two really excellent resources that I offer. One is Dr. Eddie Moore's 21-Day Racial Equity Building Challenge. It'll walk you through a daily practice. And Layla Saad's book, "Me And White Supremacy" workbook. That's a book you do rather than read. That will start us on what is a process, not a moment or an instant.
SHAPIRO: How do you get past the defensiveness that so often comes up in these kinds of conversations?
DIANGELO: I actually think that when you change your understanding of what it means to be racist, you will no longer be defensive. That mainstream definition of individual conscious malintent across race not only beautifully protects the system of racism by exempting virtually all white people from that system because who among your listeners right now would ever say they're consciously, intentionally mean across race? I think that definition is the root of most of the defensiveness. And when you change your definition, it's actually liberating and you can start getting to work actually trying to identify how I've been shaped by the system, but not if.
SHAPIRO: So we've been talking about awareness and understanding. Let's talk about actions. I mean, just to take one specific example, how do you suggest white people can help normalize checking each other when they see racism?
DIANGELO: Well, the first thing is try to point the finger inward, not outward. I hope even in the short time you and I have been speaking that I've been modelling that, that I'm not outside of this. I'm not telling you what to think or feel or believe. I'm just sharing with you what I do. And even if that doesn't shift you, there are two really important things that just happened. You did have to hear a counternarrative, whether you liked it or not, and I was in my integrity by breaking with white solidarity.
SHAPIRO: How do everyday interactions like the ones that we are talking about fit into what we're seeing globally right now - people marching in the streets against state-sanctioned violence against black people?
DIANGELO: Well, we've seen these moments before. I do see these protests being sustained and different kinds of demands coming out of them. That is hopeful. But the key is, what will happen when those cameras go away and when it's no longer, for lack of a better word for white people, anyway, exciting or righteous to go down and protest? The status quo of this society is racism. And I, as a white person, live in that society in comfort. It is comfortable for me as a white person to live in a racist society. We've got to start making it uncomfortable and figuring out what supports we're going to put in place to help us continue to be uncomfortable because the forces of comfort are quite seductive.
SHAPIRO: Robin DiAngelo is author of "White Fragility: Why It's So Hard To Talk To White People About Racism."
Thanks for joining us today.
DIANGELO: Oh, thank you for having me.
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