PLEASE NOTE: This is a minimally-edited transcript that originates from a program that uses AI.
Anita Rao
This is Embodied, from PRX and WUNC. I’m Anita Rao.
One point nine million dollars...that’s what one woman says it’s cost her to survive in the U.S. without permanent legal status. That figure includes everything from wage theft to PTSD...and yet...it’s incomplete.
Alix Dick
There are things that money cannot give you back. There is not a way for me to get the days that I have missed my family, the days that I have had a dignified life.
Anita Rao
Alix Dick fled to the U.S. from Mexico in 2011 and wrote a book about navigating life as an undocumented person. She links her personal story to research with help from a scholar.
Antero Garcia
Time and again, when these studies have happened, it proves that individuals who are undocumented pay for themselves over time, right? So this myth of individuals coming in and taking, uh, an unfair share is, is just simply not true.
Anita Rao
The costs of being undocumented in the U.S., just ahead on Embodied.
Throughout the past year, the Trump administration has released a firestorm of immigration enforcement throughout the country. And in early January, the number of people in immigration detention was at an all time high. But despite media reports of arrests and deportations, many Americans don't know much about the day-to-day lives of the undocumented folks who live here, and just how expensive it can be to be undocumented in this country.
This is Embodied our show about sex, relationships, and health. I'm Anita Rao. After more than a decade living in the US without permanent legal status, EK's, Dick calculated what it has cost her to survive, and that number is close to $2 million. In her recent book, the Cost of Being Undocumented. Alix and a co-author tell the personal stories behind these numbers and challenge misconceptions about life in the US without legal status. Alix grew up in Mexico in a wealthy and loving family and thought she'd never have to leave.
Alix Dick
I'm from a city called Sinaloa. It's in Mexico, and unfortunately I believe that people know about this city because of how dangerous it is and the cartel violence and things like that. But for me, growing up, I was fortunate enough. To grow up in the most loving and wonderful family. And I was privileged to grow up in a family where money was not an issue. My parents were very successful business owners and great investors, and, and they were doing a lot of different business and different fields, and my life seemed like a dream, and I, I thought that was life always that easy and always that loving, even though the, the city I lived in was never safe for me. My. Parents did a wonderful job kind of keeping me from it, but then life. Happens and tragedy hits sometimes and everything change.
Anita Rao
Yeah. I wanna ask you about that turning point around 2008. You were in college, the global economy was taking a downturn, and your dad unknowingly took out a loan from someone who was involved in the CINA one drug cartels. Things began to get really dangerous for your family. Tell me a little bit about that danger and how that changed y'all's day-to-day life.
Alix Dick
So my parents were doing big investments and my dad was, as a business person, you think that you're doing business with business people who are legitimately like you are. Right? And unfortunately. My dad made that mistake to trust people more than he should have, and we started losing business and losing our money and, and in that result in my parents being in debt with people who were involved, launder and money for the cartel. So, uh, for very long time, probably almost two years, my dad received death threats. Hmm. And my mom and my dad did everything in their power to keep us away from it and keep us away from that information. But it got to a point where things got so bad and it got so dangerous that we had to make a decision.
Anita Rao
Tell me about the moment when you knew that you had to leave Mexico. Is there, is there a specific moment or situation that comes to mind?
Alix Dick
Yeah. So it's interesting, uh, to talk about the past in a very specific way because I feel that my brain kind of blur everything out.
Anita Rao
Yeah.
Alix Dick
In hopes to make me survive and make me kinda have a normal life. I believe that my brain is just trying to protect me, blurring out those memories. But I, for what I recall, my mom kind of sat us down, my siblings and I. And she pretty much gave us two options. One of those options was coming to the United States and meet us there, and the other plan was for us to wait until my mom could kind of figure it out certain things and logistics for our home and the cars and business that were still operating, even though that we were not making too much money as we used to, but. Both of those options included to have to leave home. But when they told us that we had to leave home, I'm thinking, okay, I'm gonna come back. I mean, my college is here, everything is here. So when I packed, I didn't even pack my laptop because I thought I, I think I was so naive, which by the way, I miss that naiveness that I used to have, but I still had hope. And I believe the way that I pack it was with hope, thinking that, okay, well things are gonna get better.
Anita Rao
So at the moment when you left, you thought it was potentially gonna be temporary. This was in 2011 and, and you and your younger brother came to the US while your mom and older sister stayed in Mexico a while longer. You were 20, your younger brother was nine, and you both were on tourist visas and you moved to Georgia where you stayed with a family friend initially. Tell me about what your expectations were at that. Point about what life in the US would be like. I know you'd been plenty of times before on vacation, but this was coming under really different circumstances.
Alix Dick
I believe that. It was something very temporary. So when I came, I think my only expectation, and to be very honest with you, was to survive. Mm-hmm. I didn't think, oh, I'm gonna come to United States for a better life to make my dreams come true. None of that was a thing for me. And like you mentioned. I used to come to United States all the time to Disneyland for almost every birthday and just for vacation. So the perception that I had of the United States was very different or what it was reality, especially for immigrants. I always thought that this country would bring safety to me, and unfortunately it did and it did not became the case.
Anita Rao
So your older sister did join you and your brother in the US after several months, and the three of you began trying to build a life together. You kept renewing your tourist visas every six months, but none of you spoke English very well and you were managing a lot. You were trying to figure out how to get your brother through school while you and your sister were also trying to find jobs under the table because you can't legally work. On tourist visas. So eventually you started talking with lawyers about getting asylum, and I wanna hear about what you heard when you asked lawyers about whether or not it was possible for you and your siblings to get asylum, given everything that you'd experienced in Mexico.
Alix Dick
So right now everything is changing the, the world and the laws are changing in a speed that I don't have words to explain. Yeah. But I'm gonna try to explain the best that I can for people who have read the book and are familiar with my story. I wanted to become, um, immigration lawyer. So I always kind of had a sense, so how things work. Right. And during that time, I'm talking about years ago, right? It was. A little bit more accessible for other people from Latin America to get work permits, to get asylum and refuge, if you had the right proof that that happened to you. Right. So I always thought that Mexico fell into those programs because that was what in my head would be, what is logic Mexico? Not all the parts, but especially the state where I'm from. It's one of the most dangerous places, not only in Mexico, but in the world. So this is a war that is constantly happening. At the age of 14, I already been in the middle of three shootings, so how is that normal? Half of the people that I went to high school with either die, disappear, or kidnapped or torture. So in my head I'm thinking. I mean, we have a great case. We have to prove that everything went wrong and how the cartel were sending the threats and that we were paying bodyguards to be able to even go to the store. So when I went to the first lawyer, we had a long conversation. We talked for like an hour and 40 minutes, and he looked at me and he was like, listen, you got a crazy case I had seen. Things are less dangerous than the things that you have seen and that you have experienced. And they have been able to get refuge work permits. And when he said that was like, yes, we're going on a good wave where we're going somewhere. And he looked at me and he's like, but there is one problem that you are Mexican. Mm. Mexico is not considered a war zone like you consider it. Mexico is not recognized as a place that is dangerous to actually receive refuge, and it's something that I still to this day, am not able to comprehend and things have changed. I wanna clarify that. Things are changing rapidly.
Anita Rao
So you had gone through so much before coming here, then coming here and trying to navigate a system where you kept getting nos and not the information that you were expecting. And eventually you all stopped renewing your tourist visas for fear that they were gonna be denied. So you began living in the US without legal status. As that shift happened, what were you thinking about the United States? Like why did you decide to stay at that point?
Alix Dick
Well, the reality is that to me and to my siblings, we didn't have a choice. Yeah. And I have to be very, very clear about this. My siblings and I have been through a lot, but. Not even once we have said that we don't love this country. Regardless of the cruelty and the violence that we have experienced here, we still believe that this country saved us. Do we wanna be here? Maybe not. Do we have a choice? No. So. It's a very complicated place to be in because there is so much grief about not being able to make your own decisions, but also having this type of anger, but so much love that it's, it's trying to coexist and. If I could go back to where I'm from, maybe I would, but I'm also not safe there. If I stay here, I could die. If I go there, I could die. So what else is there for me to be able to have dignity and being able to not merely survive, but to live, I, I don't know what it will take
Anita Rao
Just ahead, Alix describes what it has taken for her to survive in the us. And shares more stories from her new book, the Cost of Being Undocumented. We'll also be joined by her co-author, academic Antero Garcia. You're listening to Embodied from WUNC, a broadcast service of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. You can also hear Embodied as a podcast. Follow and subscribe on your platform of choice. We'll be right back.
This is Embodied. I am Anita Rao. Today we're talking about one woman's experience being undocumented in the us. Ali Stick is the co-author of the cost of being undocumented, which tallies the emotional and financial toll of that experience. It also pushes back against the narrative that undocumented folks take more than they give to the US economy. The book blends memoir and research and was a result of a collaboration between Alix and Stanford University professor Antero Garcia. Alix and Antero first met in 2019, but their relationship did not start as a research collaboration.
Antero Garcia
When we first met Alix was my kid's nanny, my wife and I, which my wife did most of the work here. My wife and I had, uh, twins, uh, in 2019. And, uh, we were both working full time and needed someone to take care of our kids. And s was the most qualified, the most caring, and, uh, was an amazing person to help us take care of our kids. Uh, six months into us working together, the global pandemic happened. Hmm. And the, the world around my, my daughters closed down to essentially three adults, right? And that was, that was really the, the world for, um, for my kids was getting to know Alix. And so, maybe as a little bit more context around this, we, uh, if we think back to those early days of the pandemic, the language we regularly talked about were essential workers, right? The people who are keeping this country running and keeping our lives running. And in that way, Alix was absolutely essential to allowing our family to thrive. As we continued to talk more, I learned more about, um, her background, her immigration status as as, as she came to share with me and really started to reflect on the ways that I was able to do research that was quote unquote, about social justice. And the only reason my career was able to continue was by. You know, using the, the work, uh, and expending the cost of the essential labor of OICs. And that really allowed me to start thinking more critically about some of the conversations that, uh, myself, but also I think the broader country weren't having at the time.
Anita Rao
Yeah. That's so interesting to lay that out. And Ali, I'm curious about what that evolution was like from your perspective, like going from this professional, you had been a professional nanny, you had worked with many families, you had the experience of kind of getting to know a family and setting your boundaries. But how did this shift from, uh, kind of employer employee relationship into one in which you were having much more in depth personal and intellectual conversations?
Alix Dick
Yeah, so, uh, I think I haven't always been a very open person, which better or for worse, that's just who I am. I don't know. And to me this might be new information for people, but. To me, I have never understood the stigma that it came with being undocumented, being undocumented. It's open something that happened to me, but that's not who I am. Mm-hmm. So I have found power in that truth, and I believe that I was very honest with them since I met them. And when he came to me with opportunity to start doing research and working together, I was very honest with him and very open, and I was. I kind of hesitant because, I mean, at that time there was a probably unseen power dynamics about how we were gonna work together. And anther did a wonderful job about bringing me in and also giving me a partnership more than anything else. And. I think that the credit should go to Ontario when it comes to that, but it was hard.
Anita Rao
You were really clear early in the process that in doing research together about the experiences of being undocumented, whatever that would look like. You didn't wanna be an an anonymous research subject. You wanted to have your full name there. You wanted to be a co-author. Talk to me about why you made that choice, given the risks.
Alix Dick
Yeah, and there was very clear with me, he was like, we don't have to do this. You don't wanna do this. Let's not do that. Do you feel unsafe? Let's not do that. So until this day, he always goes for what I say, or what I believe it's safe. When we started working, he gave me the option, should we do this anonymously so you can be somehow safer? And I said, no, because. Do I wanna do this job? If you ask me, and my honest answer is no, I don't wanna do this. I, I, I think I'm putting myself in so much danger, but I do believe that we have difficult callings in life, and unfortunately, this is what I have to offer. And if that means putting myself in risk. But bringing awareness and, and bringing a little bit of liar hope in these times, then I'm gonna have to make sacrifices. I actually believe that if I did it anonymously, it wouldn't have the impact that it has now because. Then it would only comply to what they're trying to do, which is erased us. And if you take my name out, you are starting to erase me too. And, and that's what I'm fighting for, for people to have a dignified life, to have to, to have their, their right to leave. And, and because of that, my name is so necessary in this process.
Anita Rao
Yeah, that. That makes a lot of sense. I wanna turn now to some of the content of the book. It's a memoir focusing on Alisa's story, but it is framed through this lens of looking at the cost of being undocumented and Antero, I wanna start with you to hear about why this idea of cost in particular was so interesting and why you thought that that was a good frame for the story.
Antero Garcia
Yeah, I think so. One, this is, this is my own professional dig at economists. Economists always get to write these books, right? The, you get the Economist who quote unquote explains, um, the phenomena of parenting or of gender dynamics in the workplace. So take the, take that economist. I, I too have a PhD. Was, was part of the, the kind of jokey sentiment of this. But you know, in, in the kind of capitalist driven world we live in, the ways we think about costs play a substantial factor in our daily decision making. And it was actually in one of our first conversations, one of our first Ikas that Elise was reflecting on the role of. Not having a social security number and talked about the ways that this country still knows who she is, right? If they, with a driver's license, with an it, if the forces in this country wanted to come and find her, they can come and find her. Unfortunately, and that's become even more apparent, uh, in this present day. And the reason they're not. Hadn't until this year been engaged in the kinds of violent mass deportation and kidnapping that we're seen is because of the cost of convenience for the rest of this country, right? It is the, the United States is able to exploit the labor of undocumented individuals. And so that turning point and that that insight from Alix really allowed us to think through. What, and this, this has come to much of our other work has been exploring what are the invisible costs that are incurred by the undocumented community today? And so, you know, as we continue to do this research, we identified many and, and winnowed down to 10 chapters that are 10 different costs. Uh, and some of those are, you know, what you would expect, right? What is the cost of healthcare? What is the cost of labor and employment for individuals who are labeled undocumented today? And some of those are less obvious costs, right? What's the cost of, um, being Mexicana, right? And, and the kind of identity as a Mexican woman in a country where whiteness is oftentimes upheld as the social and valued norm? Just to say like the, the kinds of invisible costs, I think are oftentimes much more costly to liks, I, I imagine, than um. Even some of the financial costs as well.
Anita Rao
So Alix, I wanna start unpacking some of these costs by talking more about your story and digging into the taxes piece of things. So there is this common misconception that undocumented folks don't pay state and federal taxes, and there are a couple of things to break down. So there are. Taxes on goods and services that everyone pays at the cash register, including undocumented folks. But according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, in just the year 2022, undocumented immigrants also paid billions of dollars in income taxes and payroll taxes. So tell me more about how that works and why you chose to pay those taxes, even though you can't reap many of the benefits.
Alix Dick
Yeah. The myth that undocumented people get to work and make cash and not pay taxes is as false as it gets because in the moment I came to the United States with a visa and before I became undocumented, I even paying taxes, and I've been paying as much taxes as any of you have been paying with. The difference that I don't get any type of benefits. Something that people don't realize or people are not aware of is. That at least the majority of people that I had had conversations with who are immigrants or undocumented immigrants are happy to. To collaborate to whatever we have to do in order to be part of this society, to be part of this country. Right. Do we believe it's unfair? Absolutely. I think all of us believe that we pay way too much taxes, but we are still happy to be part of it because I think undocumented people are always finding ways to do the right thing, always finding ways to be. To feel like we belong and we have a place here. And also it's not so much about our choice because if we wanna work, then we still have to obtain what it's called, an IT number, which is, uh, a number identity that it was created. I don't recall well, but in the nineties. So for people to be able to have a record in the United States for whatever reason, being undocumented, you still had to pay those taxes. Those taxes don't bring me any type of benefits. So the, the information that says that undocumented people get things for free and then they don't pay taxes is, is false. And on top of that, undocumented people have paid nearly, almost. A hundred billion dollars in taxes that we don't see. We don't get any safety for paying taxes. It's only a way for us to be part of this country to be in the system, basically, which I always knew that paying taxes would bring. More danger to me because you have to, you have to do it every year like everyone else, and they have your phone number, your addresses, they, they know where to find you. But I think for very long time, this country extracted the labor and the money and our finances, and it still didn't give us. The opportunity to work in better jobs. Why? Because it was convenient. Because having undocumented people is very convenient for the economy. People do not wanna admit, and that's, that's fine. That doesn't mean because they don't wanna admit it. It's not true because I believe if you, the system want it, that's to be actually be part of society. Why are they giving us a number just to extract from us, but not giving us better opportunities, better jobs? Because at the end of the day, immigrants do not only the jobs that nobody wants to do, also the jobs that people can't do, and that's a reality then. Nobody wants to see that. Right. And it's very unfortunate for me to see even Americans lacking so much when we are paying so many taxes, but. People are not receiving anything for free. I haven't gotten anything for free. I can tell you that I have paid everything full price, overpriced. I would say
Anita Rao
Antero, I wanna ask you to zoom out for a second because yeah, we hear, we hear Ali's story of, you know, how long she has been paying taxes in this country, the amount of money that she has paid. When we zoom out and look at the data. Kind of net in, in the country. We hear a lot about kind of the tax burden of undocumented people. What do we know about how that bears out in the numbers in terms of the amount of tax dollars undocumented folks as a whole contribute versus the costs?
Antero Garcia
Yeah. Uh, so there's, there's two ways to think about this. So one, there's substantial income from undocumented individuals. Paying taxes, right? As, as you mentioned, billions and billions of dollars, uh, every year of income from individuals who are self-reporting and paying taxes. So there's that side. There's, there's economic data behind what kinds of financial contributions, individuals who are labeled undocumented make in this country. And time and again, when these studies have happened, it proves that individuals who are undocumented. Pay for themselves over time, right? They, they are not making a financial burden to this country, and in fact, they're adding to the economy, uh, and to the labor force in this country in positive ways and always have been. Right? So this myth of individuals coming in and in. Taking an unfair share is, is just simply not true. Right. And just like the hard part about when we talk about money is we're not talking about human beings and individuals. Right. And so this is, that's the hard part with the zooming out part. Right. The other, the other side, when I think about these taxes right, is a good portion of the taxes that Alix and many other people in this country have paid who are undocumented, is actively going to funding ice. Yeah. Into programs that are harming. Right. This community. Right. And so, you know, as, as much as we can see the atrocities that we're seeing happen in this country right now affecting individuals regardless of citizenship status, it is a damning moment to think about, you know, essentially writing over a portion of your income to be actively hunted in this country by, by funding that hunt.
Anita Rao
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and this is just kind of one example that you all point out in, in the book of the financial amount that undocumented folks are paying mm-hmm. That they don't necessarily see the returns of the other is kind of this, this bigger question Alis of labor and employment. You mentioned earlier that when you, um, were in Mexico, you had dreams of becoming an immigration lawyer and you brought those dreams with you. Into the us but as you write, you're actually the first person in your family who didn't finish college and not being able to finish college or finish your law degree has shut you out from a higher paying career. What have been the barriers for you to pursuing higher education in this country and getting a higher paying job?
Alix Dick
Yeah. So in order for an undocumented person to get enrolled in a college, it's a incredible difficult job. You actually can, if you have the money to pay out of pocket, there is, um, I would say very limited opportunities for people like me to get higher education because there are scholarships, but they're very limited in the people who have been able to do, it's because they. either are super humans, who the assistant considers, uh, very smart, or you have the needs to, to actually get to do this. Or you have parents that support you or you have family that support you or you get or you're able to get loans. And I had coming back to school three or four times, I had to drop out because I couldn't, I couldn't pay. Education is very. It's very expensive for everyone. Right? So you can only imagine how expensive it is for an international student.
Anita Rao
Yeah. You had a lot of challenges making enough money, but also finding fair employment and good working conditions. Can you talk about some of those with, with some examples from your experience?
Alix Dick
Yeah, undocumented people are fully aware that normal jobs are not available for us, and that's a myth that undocumented people are stealing good jobs from American people. The jobs that are available for us are jobs like cleaning houses, uh, nannying, sometimes in restaurants. In, in the last few years with I Verify has been very difficult for undocumented people to get jobs at a restaurant, let's say, because I think number is not enough anymore in order for us to be able to get a job like that. So my options are usually either cleaning houses or nannying or jobs that I can. I can do cash, but I still have to pay taxes because the system has a record or where I live. The system has a record that I'm alive and, and that I'm working. So there is no way out of you to not pay taxes because the IRS is gonna come You.
Anita Rao
Antero, when Ali started working for your family, what were some of the costs that you learned more about in terms of the costs, um, for her to get employment or get fair employment, and how did those show up and how the two of you talk together?
Antero Garcia
Sure. So just in, we'll start with the hiring process. So we interviewed leaks and we interviewed several other nannies. You know, all of them seemed like they knew what babies were and how to take care of them. Uh, but, you know, EKS seemed most qualified and most caring in ways that you, you know, when you think of handing over your child to somebody else, right? Who, who's the person that that's gonna be in? And it was very clearly Alix at that time. Uh, and so what, what we didn't ask when, when we did that interview process was. What's your immigration status? Right. And you know, we, we didn't ask for a, a college degree or any of the kinds of things like that because frankly, when it comes to caring for my kids, those aren't the qualifications that we cared for. And so we went through traditional, um, negotiations around pay and days off and all of those kinds of things. Um, so just to say like that, the front end of this is exactly what you would imagine asking anybody who you want to take care of your kids in the best way possible.
Alix Dick
Usually I think, and I have to mention, I feel like you guys were incredibly kind and compassionate in the whole process, and you made it easy, but it's usually, it's a background check. It's a lot of different processes that it requires in order for an nanny to, to get a job. And it has become even more difficult now.
Antero Garcia
I mean, I think we, we talked to our reference, we, we had a copy of your current driver's license, right? Like all of the kinds of documentation that still exists for people. And one of the things. That became clear during the pandemic was regardless of of immigration status, right. It was very clear that while, you know, we're getting our groceries delivered and you know, my wife and I basically went outside to walk our dogs and take our kids to the park nearby. A had to, you know. Actually commute here. Right. And had to not have her groceries delivered. Right. Like, there, there's, there are very kinds of differences in lived experiences that meant that Alix was putting her, um, her own health and life at risk in order to engage in employment, uh, in ways that, you know, I didn't have to. Um, and so just to name like that is a kind of. Uh, privilege, uh, that became clear, uh, during the work process, um, in those early days
Anita Rao
Just ahead Antero and Alix tell us about the process of calculating what it's cost her to live as an undocumented immigrant in the us. Stay with us after the break. And remember, you can hear the podcast version of this show by following Embodied on your platform of choice.
This is Embodied. I am Anita Rao. What is the financial cost of living as an undocumented immigrant in the us? That's what we're talking about today with Alix Dick and Antero Garcia. Alix and Antero co-authored the book, the Cost of Being Undocumented. Alix is a writer, activist, and filmmaker. And Antero is an associate professor at Stanford University. The two of them spent years having conversations about Ali's experiences as an undocumented person in the US and they did research on broader trends to put Ali's story in context. One theme the book homes in on is Alix's ongoing struggle to access healthcare.
Alix Dick
When I came to the United States, the first job that I had was at this Mexican restaurant, and I started experiencing. A lot of pain in my, in one of my molars on the left, and during that time I, I was thinking that maybe it's a cavity or it's something that I might be able to fix at home. I had no idea. The struggles that it would be to get the health that you need, because I'm thinking this is the richest country in the world. Why would that be an issue? But I didn't speak English, so I was very intimidated by going to a doctor and explain and not being able to get understood. I would say probably three, four months. I, I, I was having issues. I was not sleeping at night. My mother was really bothering me. And I was like, I cannot keep doing this. I, I have to do something. So I went to a clinic that was close to the Mexican restaurant where I was working. And, uh, when I got there, I was just desperate thinking, okay, they might take the molar out, whatever, whatever you need to do. I just need to get rid of this pain. And the dentist took me in and as soon as he saw me, I, I could see in his face that he was concerned. And, and he told me, look, you have a really. Bad infection that even if I take the molar out, that infection I think is so deep in your guns that I'm afraid that we're gonna have to do other procedures. It's, it's really bad. And I was like, oh, that's fine. If you need to cut my head off. God, take it off. Whatever you need to do. Like, I'm not afraid, like take me in. And I was really enthusiastic about hearing somebody validating my pain. He was like, okay, let's, let's put your information in. Let's try to get, um, a better health insurance because the health insurance that comes from your work doesn't cover. Dental work, it only covers ER situations. And I had no idea because I'm like, why is IRS taking money from my healthcare and I'm not able to get anything from it? So what's the point of it? Isn't it this an emergency? And he was like, no, that's not how it works. And in order for me to get the help I needed, I believe it was like. I, I don't recall well, but it was almost $2,000. But I was there for almost two hours looking for different resources. That receptionist was so kind to call two different insurances to call even companies that will make a, a loan for me to get the help that I needed because it was so bad that they got so concerned that they wanted to help me, but nothing worked, and they weren't able to help me. And he ended up sending me to the pharmacy just to get. Some painkillers and that's about it. So another month or two months passed by, I don't remember how much time he passed, and every single day he only got worse. One day I woke up and I was hearing this very weird noise in my ear that was like, didn't like very weird, I don't know what it was. And I feel wetness around my ear and I touch and I have blood. And it seemed like my hearing. Something exploded inside of me. So I was rushed to the emergency room, la, la, la emergency room where they're supposed to take me. Right. That's what, at least what the doctor told me. So when I got there, they, they told me the infection. You got very lucky that the infection didn't get to your brain. I almost did. But it got to your hearing. Mm-hmm. So I didn't lose a hundred percent of my hearing, but I lost, uh. Very big percentage of my hearing and I never be able to get it back. And all of that was because when I needed help that I was paying for, because that's supposed to come from your. Insurance that didn't work. And it breaks my heart to know that not only undocumented people go through this, it's not only us, it's also American people. I fully understand and I, I empathize with that. But when it comes to undocumented people, you get into a corner, what? There is not options for you.
Anita Rao
Yeah,
Alix Dick
absolutely no options.
Anita Rao
The, the extra kind of thing you point out in your story is you're kind of stuck. In addition to not having the health insurance, you also are not able to access credit cards, so you don't have the ability no, to put things on credits. There are so many other additional experiences that you have that make it even harder to to pay for any kind of healthcare.
Alix Dick
Yeah. And, and that's, people think it's only one thing, but it's all the layers. It's like an onion, right? Even the dentist was like trying to make me understand maybe we can get a loan, and I'm like, no, I actually cannot get a loan because loans are very difficult to get for undocumented people, but if you get them, the interest rates are so high. It's just ridiculous. And I'm actually in, in a lot of debt because of that.
Antero Garcia
It's like an onion. 'cause it'll make you cry also.
Anita Rao
Well, yeah, I mean there, I, I would love for you to, to give us a sense of, you know, obviously there are so many people in this country who don't have access to good healthcare, who have a lot of medical debt. Do you have a sense of how undocumented folks experiences accessing healthcare Does compare to people with legal status.
Antero Garcia
It's worse. That's my professional opinion. Uh, their, their access is worse and places their lives at more risk. Right. Just to be very direct about it. Right. So Elise mentioned emergency rooms, and oftentimes that is one of the few places, depending on the state you're in, where. Individuals who are labeled undocumented actually receive any kind of medical care. Right. We talked to some physicians, uh, for this book, and it was clear like during the early days of the pandemic, that some of the earliest victims that were showing up in states were undocumented laborers who were being exposed to the coronavirus. Uh, because they were essential labor, right? So we can think through those kinds of health risks, right? And I think, you know, some of the more visceral experiences are what Aly writes about in a different part of this book, where again, seeking dental care here in the blue state of California. Uh. Alis was denied in a very similar way from dental insurance and ends up going into the back of the equivalent of a hair salon and finds a dental chair from someone that she doesn't know whether or not they're an actual dentist who performs, uh, a, a tooth extraction and root canal by paying cash up front right in this kind of underground setting that is, is wild that it exists, uh, in, in this country today.
Anita Rao
So we have talked about taxes, employment, healthcare, in terms of costs, and you all actually came up with a numerical value to represent what it has cost Alis to be an undocumented person in this country for just over a decade. And that there's a, there's a table at the end of the book and it includes everything from wage theft to legal fees to hospital visits to care for post-traumatic stress disorder, and the total is about 1.9 million dollars Ando. How did you all find numerical values for some of these costs that are harder to pinpoint, like psychological and emotional costs? Tell me about that process.
Antero Garcia
Yeah. So as I, as I've clearly established before this, I'm not an economist, so I'll just, uh, we'll start with the, the caveats and part, part of what we did was in addition to that dollar amount, we do list some of the, the kinds of costs that can't be calculated, right? The, like, how do you put a cost on someone's humanity, right? So just to name that, that we tried to put as close to a, a financial number as we could, and we did that intentionally to, we, we hope people read that. Either disagree because it's too low or it's too high, but at least have something out there to have a conversation around. Was was the intent? Now how we got to some of these numbers, right? So wage theft is easy, right? We can look at the, the, the period where Alis was working in a restaurant, the kinds of hours that she wasn't compensated for, and roughly approximate what her hourly wage should have been for that time. Those are the kinds of things that most people should be able to kind of back of the napkin figure out. Now, when it comes to issues of, um. Sexual and physical abuse that are experienced or kinds of physical harm and impairment, like the loss of hearing. It turns out that the insurance companies in this country actually have tables that are prepared to adjust for those things. And so if you talk to an insurance adjuster like we did. And you look at the kinds of harm that was experienced and the severity of that harm, there's a big fancy table and an actuarial table, and you can, you can kind of track down what is a payout, right? So, and, and these are things that, you know, large businesses deal with all the time, right? If you're in a, a meat processing factory and someone's limb is severed, depending on if that is their dominant hand or not dominant hand, and if it's just a finger or if it's the entire hand. Right, like you get a certain amount of money and so we just followed the kinds of procedures that currently exist for employed individuals and applied those as best as we could. For someone who is labeled undocumented and isn't able to, benefit's the wrong word here, but benefit from those kinds of, uh, systems that, that are currently in place in this country,
Anita Rao
Alix, what was it like for you to see that total $1.9 million? How did you react?
Alix Dick
Who argue that it's incredibly low Uhhuh? Well, she's waiting for her check. The, the, the funny part about all of this is that we usually talk about that social economics, about being undocumented. We, we, everybody talks about that financial. A state of things and, and, and we talk about numbers, right? And even though that I think it's very low, I, I mean it wholeheartedly, there are things that money cannot give you back. I'll never get my health back. And, and that's not honest. True. And that's, and it's not for me to be dramatic. There is not a way for me to get the days that I have missed my family, the days that I have had a dignified life and. That's why for me, in my head, of course, the economics are so important and, and that has been so complicated for me to, to be able to survive in this country. It's been very difficult, but there are things that I cannot put a number on.
Anita Rao
Yeah. So the two of you wrote this book during the Biden administration. It was released in the middle of last year, six months into Trump's tenure, have. Referenced throughout this show, the the change in climate and how things have shifted. But I wanna bring it more personal into the relationship between the two of you and, and hear about the conversations the two of you have been having about balancing safety and publicity as you want to tell the story of this book and put it out into the world. But there are also some real costs for Alix to do that.
Antero Garcia
Yeah, the, the timing couldn't be better or worse for this book in terms of the urgency for this conversation to be happening. But for Alix to be present to do that has been truly awful. Right. So our book came out two weeks into the. Substantial ice raids that first started happening in Los Angeles, where both of us now live for our book launch, uh, which happened at Octavia's Bookshelf. We'll, shadow Octavia's Bookshelf in Pasadena, an amazing community resource in this space. The owners of that bookstore, Nikki, um, she was able to. Make sure that we had community patrolling outside to make sure that this was as safe a space as possible. Every time we try to figure out a new event, I usually try to convince leaks we shouldn't do it. Uh, just in, given the kinds of risks that are happening and any, any in person activities. Obviously have to be within the state. EKS can't cross state lines right now and anything outta state, uh, I usually, uh, will travel to and we'll zoom EKS into. So just to say like, there's some logistics conversations that we figure out, but also the conversations we have from place to place usually aren't particularly pleasant. This is, this is a thing where, you know, you, you write a book, you wanna celebrate it, you want to be in community with other people, and. You can speak to this, but I imagine these are places of high stress and high anxiety for you.
Alix Dick
No, they're not pleasant at all. And the conversa and the
Antero Garcia
questions that you get from the audience are usually the most invasive. Is that,
Alix Dick
yeah, the most invasive, which I kind of was prepared, mentally prepared for people to be invasive, but there is also so much aggressiveness in those questions. Uh, so these events are usually not pleasant. They are not. They're not. And that, that's, we like all the people that show up. We, we love, we love. No, I mean, the reason, and that's the funny part. The reason we did this book for me was all this rage and all this grief comes from a place of love, comes from a place of compassion. Not only for my situation, but for everyone else, you know? So. We get a lot of support and we get a lot of love as well. But it's impossible to ignore the negativity that it's, that, that these events bring. Because sometimes people come because they, they trying to have a debate or they're trying to intimidate you. And by the way, I'm not going to places to debate. I just gotta be very upfront about that. And I don't know where people got the idea, but I can sense that they don't go with them. Best heart position, I would say. Yeah, a lot of people, but I also don't wanna minimize the love and the incredible support that we have. Yeah. Gone in as well.
Anita Rao
Well, I have, I have just one last question for you, Ali, which is that toward the end of the book, you share a dream for your future, and it includes living in a house that you can afford with a job that gives you sick time to attend to your needs. The ability to work as a writer and storyteller, a filmmaker, which is something that you love, but you share the stream with the knowledge that you're not sure if it's at all possible. How is dreaming important for your survival in this moment right now?
Alix Dick
My answer, I don't know if it's going to answer this question, but I have big dreams. I still wanna become a lawyer. I still working on my films and, and working on my TV script to, to make my story. Uh. To, to put it in television and, and I have all of these projects, but the reality of my life is that at this moment, even though that I'm working really hard for all of these different projects in different fields, I just wanna survive today. And that's what I've been focusing on. Uh, I'm taking one day at a time. I don't know what the future holds for me. And that's the saddest part of this, right? Like even though that I'm working really, really hard and all of these projects and going back to school and all the things that I wanna do, the most important thing for me right now is to make it to tomorrow. And tomorrow I will figure it out. But for now, I feel like I don't have the space or that hope. Though that, I hate to say that, but everything looks so blur that I, I just wanna make it to tomorrow and then tomorrow I'll take it from there.
Anita Rao
Well, thank you so much for sharing so much of your story with us and Ontario for your contributions and this book that you two have written together. Thank you so much for the conversation.
Antero Garcia
Thank you.
Alix Dick
Thank you so much, Anita.
Anita Rao
You can find out more about Alix and their book, the Cost of Being Undocumented at our website, embodiedwunc.org. You can find all episodes of Embodied the radio show there and subscribe to our weekly podcast. Today's episode is produced by Kaia Findlay and edited by Amanda Magnus. Sara Nics provided additional editorial guidance. Adesina Newkirk is our intern and Jenni Lawson, our technical director. Quilla wrote our theme music. This program is recorded at the American Tobacco Historic District. WUNC is a broadcast service of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I'm Anita Rao.